Compilation of important and reasonable balance changes for multiplayer

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Cyk0
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Compilation of important and reasonable balance changes for multiplayer

Postby Cyk0 » 16 March 2016, 11:35

Having reached lvl 8 with both factions and after testing different build currently winning most of my games, here is a compilation of what I think would be good balance changes. Some of these have been brought upp by different player beforehand, all credit to them! I just compiled the ones I thought matched my observations and the general vibe here on the forums.

Nova cannon and assault craft:
The two biggest meta scares need a change up.

    Nova cannon: Increase minimum range.
    This will make it harder to tactical warp jump and fire them and it will incentivize torpedos as the shorter range “disruption” weapon.

    *Edit* Holding off on the crit oppinion untill I can test the new system more
    Assault craft crits: When Emergency repair is used mark up to three randomly selected modules/criticals and repair them.
    This would in no way invalidate Assault boats but it would make random lucky criticals in a fleeting engagement less of a potential game winner. (The repair selection being done when it is used is to keep the decision of when to use the ability relevant, and to avoid it being used quickly and then just repairing stuff out of the blue in the middle of combat)


Shield transfer and warp jump:
The two staple skills of all the good fleets.

*edit* this seems to have been partially done in the patch, withholding judgement for now.
    Shield transfer: Make the maximum shield restored 200 and use up 25 shield to do that.
    This is the strongest skill in game currently and it can make taking down a big shielded target in data and assassination next to impossible, requiring and using up a small amount of shield (quarter of a cruiser shield) will mean that you can go after the other targets to stop them from transferring shield, while the cap of maximum shield gain will make it scale less crazy with stronger shields.


    Short range warp jump Ad a 5 second variant of normal warp cast time.
    This will mean that manoeuvring with the thrusters will be more important for dodging stuff, and it will give a sense of control to the opponent since you would have a small widow to counter it being used.


Mixed armament uppgrades
Merge the two range upgrades to one and add a new one were lances add a short duration amor debuff (benefiting weapon batteries)
This will give ships with a mix the same ability as single type ships to pick up offensive upgrades.


Ship variety
Currently the most successful players use a low number of hulls, these changes are aimed at increasing that variety (and in some cases that can be accomplished with bringing the ship characteristics in line with tabletop)

    Imperial:
    Increase torpedo damage and top speed, but start them off slow and then accelerate them up to top speed. (So that they can still be dodged at closer ranges without being trivial at long kiting range)
    This change coupled with better scaling for hybrids (lunar) and the nova cannon minimum range increase would mean a greater variety of ships being used. The Retribution is currently less desirable than the Emperor, giving it its table top speed buff (Same speed as line cruisers) should close the gap.

    As @Drang pointed out the option of giving more imperial ships, the option to equip and the option to strip it off the nova cannon in favour of torps would be nice. With increased minimum range of the nova and better torpedoes, this would be a worthwhile choice (a 15 point, increase/decrease in cost would keep the cheapest nova ship above at 151 still and prevent two of them from entering a 300 pt battle) I think this would be a nice touch to see a greater variety of ships in game.

    Chaos:
    The Slaughter should have the same base speed as the lights to offset its short range give the Carnage its mix of long but weaker and medium range batteries (Like the tyrant) change the Devastations macro to long range lances but increase its point cost to offset the added synergy. The murder should benefit from the hybrid upgrades and be more differentiated from the Carnages changed broadside) Battleship wise, the Desolator might need its table top speed increase to close the gap to the Despolier.
Last edited by Cyk0 on 16 March 2016, 18:40, edited 4 times in total.

randuir
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Re: Compilation of important and reasonable balance changes for multiplayer

Postby randuir » 16 March 2016, 12:14

Its a good set of changes, though I assume for the shield transfer you meant use up 250 shield hp instead of 25?

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Imperator5
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Re: Compilation of important and reasonable balance changes for multiplayer

Postby Imperator5 » 16 March 2016, 12:16

Nova cannon is already too lacklustre in later games.

Maybe make it require a straight, unblocked LOS to the target, but make it more accurate? Or perhaps give it a skill that increases its damage at higher levels. Or just increase both damage and cooldown?

Torpedoes are overall weak.

Retribution is bad not because of torpedoes (Well Emperor has no prow guns at all for some odd reason) it is bad because its broadsides are just super weak.

Shield transfer would be useless if it used up more shields than it gave? Defeats the whole purpose of the skill.
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

Please help me change skirmish to be customisable. Its very important for PVE players.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=515 Mod idea.

Demoulius
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Re: Compilation of important and reasonable balance changes for multiplayer

Postby Demoulius » 16 March 2016, 12:38

In the TT the NC has a minimum range of 30 cm's, which translaters to 6km's ingame. Id find that a fair change.

Crits are indeed a major problem atm but they already mentioned that they made a mistake with how they are implemented in the game. Lets see how they perform when the error is corrected before we change things further!

Personally dont use shield transfer but if it transfers more then it costs it sounds abit OP imho, shouldnt it just transfer shields on a 1 on 1 basis?

Not sure what you mean with the warp jump change, can you elaborate?

The mixed arnaments need to go on the ships that dont also got it in the TT. Alot of the chaos ships dont got the weapons that they should and fixing that would go a long way to give the chaos fleet some options.

For torps im not sure if increasing damage would do the trick... Theyre atm harder to use then the NC yet not all hits do damage. Currently if all 6 torps from a normal cruiser hit they already do more damage then a NC shot does... Either make them ignore armor, increase speed OR indeed increase damage so they actually impact when they hit and arent ignored by armor. Torps got enough counter balances that ignoring armor wouldnt be OP in my opinion. But imho dont do more then 1 of those things as that would amount to overbuffing in my opinion.

The game does lack abit of customisation that the TT has and an increase in points would be needed if they did include that. Would certainly be nice to give some options to the players :)

For the chaos ships... Just give them their TT weaponry. Give the dorsal turrets (that replaced the prow batteries) a 270 degrees arc instead of just a 90 degrees one... Its to limiting atm and prevents chaos from fighting on their own terms.

Cyk0
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Re: Compilation of important and reasonable balance changes for multiplayer

Postby Cyk0 » 16 March 2016, 12:53

randuir wrote:Its a good set of changes, though I assume for the shield transfer you meant use up 250 shield hp instead of 25?
Glad you like them, no I actually intended for it to be 25 which would be a quarter of a light cruiser shield (The smallest ship that can have the skill) I don't like overnerfing things. The requirement that the giver has some shield gives you options for counterplay (A transferer without shield can't transfer) and the maximum of 200 shield given prevents it from scaling away crazily with upgrades or on larger ships.


Imperator5 wrote:Torpedoes are overall weak.
I agree, that's the reason for the proposed damage increase. Or do you mean there is some other change better suited to improving them? Damage suggestion seems to be the most frequent one.

Imperator5 wrote:Retribution is bad not because of torpedoes (Well Emperor has no prow guns at all for some odd reason) it is bad because its broadsides are just super weak.
Agreed, but it will still benefit from improved torpedos, the proposed speed upgrade and the range upgrade working on booth the lances and the batteries. If its still not used after that upping batteries would be the next step(The emperor has the sensors on the prow, that's why it has double sensor range)

Imperator5 wrote:Nova cannon is already too lacklustre in later games.

Maybe make it require a straight, unblocked LOS to the target, but make it more accurate? Or perhaps give it a skill that increases its damage at higher levels. Or just increase both damage and cooldown?
I don't
want this thread to turn into to the nova thread. Yes in high level matches it is not a dominating weapon, but it still serves a function in forcing the enemy to close, which this suggestion doesn't change. I have a very high win rate with my rank 8 imperial, I certainly think they are far from lackluster even though they no longer get the enemy ragequiting.

Imperator5 wrote:Shield transfer would be useless if it used up more shields than it gave? Defeats the whole purpose of the skill.
Agreed that's why its not what I am suggesting. I suggested it should use upp a small amount of shield to give a standar cruiser amount of shield to the target.

warlock00
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Re: Compilation of important and reasonable balance changes for multiplayer

Postby warlock00 » 16 March 2016, 12:56

Nice read, good ideas.

To avoid torpedoes being a short range shotgun perhaps damage and speed should scale up with distance. eg. Scale up to do double damage when it reaches 6000 range (Only x1.5 damage for escorts). Skill shots are good for the game, Chaos needs their torpedo skill shot buffed too.

First thing that came to mind when I saw short range warp jump was cool a ship can fire off both broadsides at a single target. A 5 sec cast time would inhibit this capability. Maybe make it a 2 sec cast time. And perhaps a max warp distance.

In addition to the above suggestions, the ship using shield transfer should also go into the 10 sec shield recharge delay state (as if it took damage).

I read with TT in competitive play it was rude to take more than 3 nova cannons. Any way to turn this weapon into a skill shot instead of easy to use with offset random luck?

Remove the randomness from the 3 assault skills? Ships could have a 100 point internal health bar that you eat through before each critical.
Last edited by warlock00 on 16 March 2016, 15:01, edited 1 time in total.

Cyk0
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Re: Compilation of important and reasonable balance changes for multiplayer

Postby Cyk0 » 16 March 2016, 13:38

Demoulius wrote:The mixed arnaments need to go on the ships that dont also got it in the TT. Alot of the chaos ships dont got the weapons that they should and fixing that would go a long way to give the chaos fleet some options.
Yea, I included the changes to bring them in line with the TT, and for the ones that are mixed in TT I hope having some hybrid upgrade options would suffice.

Demoulius wrote:In the TT the NC has a minimum range of 30 cm's, which translaters to 6km's ingame. Id find that a fair change.
I think that would be to short, the very important strategic function of the nova cannon is to force the enemy to close despite the imperials being slower and otherwise shorter ranged. If people find that the barge relents when they are closer to the enemy it would not be a cause as much frustration.
The problem right now is that kiting fleets get wrecked for staying in its optimal range, If kiting was a balance act between geting shots of while nog getting caught and not straying of into nova range we would have a skill game going on. (Better torpedoes plays into this because this sort of thing tp would bring the kiters into range of you torpedos and open for load of interesting maneuvering)

Demoulius wrote:Crits are indeed a major problem atm but they already mentioned that they made a mistake with how they are implemented in the game. Lets see how they perform when the error is corrected before we change things further!
The crit change won’t have any impact on a straight up engagement so I doub’t it’s an overnerf. The goal is rather to remove randomness and frustration by having an early lucky criticals basically removing ships from the game. With this if you can get them out of the combat and can hide them you have a chance of slowly resting some functionality.

Demoulius wrote:Personally dont use shield transfer but if it transfers more then it costs it sounds abit OP imho, shouldnt it just transfer shields on a 1 on 1 basis?
It uses no shield at all and doesen't require you to have shield at all... That suggestion would be to much and would probably mean no one would use it.

Demoulius wrote:Not sure what you mean with the warp jump change, can you elaborate?
Basically a five second cast timer on the micro warp jump skill. Just like a normal warp out, but only 5 seconds long (could even benefit from the 50% time reduction upgrade) after that the ship warps (and just like a normal warp jump it can be canceled by the opponent)

Demoulius wrote:For torps im not sure if increasing damage would do the trick... Theyre atm harder to use then the NC yet not all hits do damage. Currently if all 6 torps from a normal cruiser hit they already do more damage then a NC shot does... Either make them ignore armor, increase speed OR indeed increase damage so they actually impact when they hit and arent ignored by armor. Torps got enough counter balances that ignoring armor wouldnt be OP in my opinion. But imho dont do more then 1 of those things as that would amount to overbuffing in my opinion. They are harder to use, but if the nova cannon gets a larger minimum range, then it will make it harder to keep the enemy in nova sights so that difference should be reduced. And if the enemy tries to stay within that deadzone they will be prime targets for torpedoes (That is also why I am hesitant for a speed increase because it will be next to impossible to doge them then. I think damage increase is fair since they have counterplay options as you point out. Making them ignore armor would remove the interesting move in mirror imperial matches to try to absorb them with your armored prow (same thing for orks) But since we don't want them to wreck a fleet that is attempting to close but rather to punish the ones that try to kite imperials slower ships i don't think that is a problem.


Demoulius wrote:The game does lack abit of customisation that the TT has and an increase in points would be needed if they did include that. Would certainly be nice to give some options to the players :)
Yup certainly a nice to have, but it doesn't hinge upon it for enjoyment since with this suggestion both torpedoes and NC's should be good while also complementing each-other.

Demoulius wrote:For the chaos ships... Just give them their TT weaponry. Give the dorsal turrets (that replaced the prow batteries) a 270 degrees arc instead of just a 90 degrees one... Its to limiting atm and prevents chaos from fighting on their own terms.
The changes gives them TT weaponry, the ship mentioned have dorsal turrets with 270, on the heavy cruiser side however some of them only have 90, the Hades is the biggest gripe there and your suggestion would certainly help it.

Demoulius
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Re: Compilation of important and reasonable balance changes for multiplayer

Postby Demoulius » 16 March 2016, 14:18

NC: 6km is a pretty big minimum distance. If you increase that even further the weapon is far to easily ignored... Some fleets not in the game yet also have a pretty big reason to close with an IN fleet. (Orks and the upcoming space marines for example...) At 9-12 km ranges the weapon also is far from precise. Its function also isent to force opponents to close (even though it might have that effect) but to be (essentially) cruiser sized artillary.

NC and Chaos: Also renember that if Chaos have their proper weaponry they can do ALOT more damage while kiting. Their damage is now quite low because alot of their weaponry is fixed to the forward arc when they should be a 270 degree arc. Last thing we want them to do is overnerf or overbuff things because if they do that it just changes the problems and the meta we have. Eldar might also become a kiting fleet so if the IN have no counter against that because their broadsides are terribly short ranged, the minimum range of the NC is increased and their torps are useless they have 0 chance to combat those fleets...

Torps: Torps can be fixed in a multiple of ways but in an RTS I inmagine they will be next to useless against kiting fleets. They will just have FAR to much time to respond to them that using torps against them is just laughable. Unless they gain like...double the speed, then it might be possible but that would then make them impossible to dodge in close encounters... :oops: not something we want.

ASsault boats: They also mentioned that aside from correcting the error that they had already planned a few nerfs to counterarct them. Thats why im suggesting we wait and see what these changes bring.

Shield transfer: Wait, you can transfer shields when you have non? :shock: that kinda sounds like a bug because you cant overcharge shields if you dont have any either... A 1 for 1 transfer, or 1 for 2 transfer (so for example giving 100 at the cost of 50) doesent sound OP in my opinion. Beeing able to raise your shields at will is a very huge thing :o

Warp jump: I get what you mean with the warp jump. I use them ocassionaly but dont run into them that much (though granted I only play a few matches per day online and the AI doesent seem to interested in them...) are they that a huge problem online? If so raising the timer could indeed be a fix.

Torps: Im squimish about raising the damage on torps because with some practice theyre actually not all that hard to get onto target. Specially if you shotgun just outside of the minimum range the turrets get little to no time to shoot them down and fighters cant intercept either, and using thrusters is often to late as well with reaction times in place for the opponent. They also do more damage (or rather have a higher POTENTIAL damage) then the NC does and people are up in arms about that as well...

Granted getting into that situation can be tricky for IN, specially if an enemy fleet is kiting :mrgreen:

Spoor
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Re: Compilation of important and reasonable balance changes for multiplayer

Postby Spoor » 16 March 2016, 15:00

I agree to all propositions save the nova cannon - with tactical warp having "cast" and disruption option "jump out and shoot" will be less effective and more dangerous, while increase of minimum range of fire will make novas literally a "one shot" weapon.

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Re: Compilation of important and reasonable balance changes for multiplayer

Postby Spoor » 16 March 2016, 15:02

also 3 repaired module per repair command is too much - should be a directed one or two


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