Revised opinions on the Orks and Eldar

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Scatamarano
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Re: Revised opinions on the Orks and Eldar

Postby Scatamarano » 11 June 2016, 23:03

Hello everyone! I joined the forum exactly to discuss the nerfs and buffs from an ork point of view. i want to make clear i wasn't one of those traktor/taunt guys before the patch and i'm extremely happ taunt is gone! Now,let's make a list:

ork vs ork: nice match-up,no traktor+taunt makes everything more dynamic,same goes for the speed buff! Not much to say really,just FOCK TAUNT!
ork vs imp: unbalanced in ork's favor,mega kannonz are still veeery strong and combined with the zzaps upgrade the damage dealing is subtantial and hardly bearable by imps "weaker" (less hp's) ships. The speed buff on ork ships is huge against imp's,really,it makes a massive difference when chasing and ramming BUT. There is one silver lining to find,the new "flammable" trait helps imeprials quite a lot! shooting "fire" torpedoes now is a legit strategy,since fire stacks and a slow/lazy/unlucky ork player might find himself with half burned ships and emergency repairs under CD before even reaching imp's line. Still,4 out of 5 times will be an ork victory and that loss will probably still be a close call.
EDIT 1: well,after playing some more i must say the balance swung from 4 out of 5 to 3 out of 5 in ork's favor,and with far more losses too! the zzaps are good but not that great against imps and the lack of kannons is only marginally compensated by torpedoes...now it's more balanced,which is good!
ork vs chaos: usual carrier/lances BS,nothing changed that much. The speed bonus on ork's ships is nice but not enough,maybe stacking slowing zzaps will help (i only have it on 4 ships out of 7 eligible for zzaps) but i doubt it,chaos will just continue to crit weapons systems from 12and that's it...the strategy in this match-up unfortunately stays the same,couple line ships and the rest savage gunships. Don't get me wrong,the speed and zzaps upgrades are good and with mwj/stasis bombs orks have a decent chanche,a tedious,boring,time consuming,chanche...
EDIT 2:wow i was wrong...i went full zzaps (3 on the deatdeala,2 on the hammers and 1 on the terrors) and boy oh boy chaos got rek'd! i ditched the speed upgrade on everything except the deathdeala,took the slowing zzaps first and exploded every chaos fllet to pieces so far! especially against carriers the damage of zzaps+torpedoes out dps their bombers and put them in an uncomfortable "keep dodging torps while losing costant hull points to penetrating zzaps" situation. Very unexpected outcome!
ork vs eldar: exactly as before,even worse maybe. sure,some less damage on eldar side is good,zzaps are good too,speed...well,+25 on 150 is nothing vs eldar. the problem is they still can and will shot all your fleet to pieces from stealth without you even being able to SEE them,no amount of skill can compensate this cheese unless the eldar player is VERY inexperienced and low leveleed shipswise. God help you if the opponent has all lvl 10,marked vessels and knows how to use them. Still a dead,frustrating matchup.

Overall i think the Eldars remain the main problem for orks and probably imps too,they are the hardest faction to balance but they still need to be addressed because they are just impossible to play against for 2 out of 3 factions excluding eldar themselves. I don't know how chaos deals with them,probably ok,but i woudn't be surprised if all that stealth bulls*it made it impossible for them too!

Mav
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Re: Revised opinions on the Orks and Eldar

Postby Mav » 12 June 2016, 12:47

Scatamarano wrote:Overall i think the Eldars remain the main problem for orks and probably imps too,they are the hardest faction to balance but they still need to be addressed because they are just impossible to play against for 2 out of 3 factions excluding eldar themselves. I don't know how chaos deals with them,probably ok,but i woudn't be surprised if all that stealth bulls*it made it impossible for him too!


While I cannot say anything from the orcs PoV other than "fuck taunt and sight improvment removal" I consider myself a quite good eldar player.
Now for the Eldar PoV.
Imps' nova cannons are still generally a miss vs Eldar as I have yet to lose against a nova cannon player but the 12k sight range BS and normal macro/lance ships prove themselves to be agonizing to fight against and I've lost against them. I wasn't able to decimate the BS fast enough and while I destroyed the rest of enemy's fleet my single lone VS had not enough firepower to destroy a BS on its own. Well I learned my lesson from that and now I know what to do if I encounter same playstyle again but I digress.
For orcs I can't say anything as I HAVE NOT MET A SINGLE LEVELED AND GOOD ORC. Seriously are orc players dead?
And last but not least, chaos. I've played quite a lot after the patch hit and 90% of my 1v1s is chaos. And 9 out of 10 they are bad and crying how fuckin OP eldar still are and how they can't do anything. Now that 1 guy with leveled ships, proper skills and general knowledge about the Eldar is a diffrent story. Against such an opponent I actually have to try really hard in order not to lose. I need to utilize my skills properly, chain blinds, make sury my engagment direction is optimal and generally have to micro a lot of stuff very fast or a lot of bad stuff happens very fast. As a rule I don't use TC as it feels like I'm cheating so ye, handicapping myself FTW. And just for the record I still probably will lose.
Now for the contoversial opinion part.
The VS is right probably the weakest BS on its own as it does not have the consistent firepower to take down other BSs.

Scatamarano
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Re: Revised opinions on the Orks and Eldar

Postby Scatamarano » 12 June 2016, 14:01

Mav wrote:
Scatamarano wrote:Overall i think the Eldars remain the main problem for orks and probably imps too,they are the hardest faction to balance but they still need to be addressed because they are just impossible to play against for 2 out of 3 factions excluding eldar themselves. I don't know how chaos deals with them,probably ok,but i woudn't be surprised if all that stealth bulls*it made it impossible for him too!


While I cannot say anything from the orcs PoV other than "fuck taunt and sight improvment removal" I consider myself a quite good eldar player.
Now for the Eldar PoV.
Imps' nova cannons are still generally a miss vs Eldar as I have yet to lose against a nova cannon player but the 12k sight range BS and normal macro/lance ships prove themselves to be agonizing to fight against and I've lost against them. I wasn't able to decimate the BS fast enough and while I destroyed the rest of enemy's fleet my single lone VS had not enough firepower to destroy a BS on its own. Well I learned my lesson from that and now I know what to do if I encounter same playstyle again but I digress.
For orcs I can't say anything as I HAVE NOT MET A SINGLE LEVELED AND GOOD ORC. Seriously are orc players dead?
And last but not least, chaos. I've played quite a lot after the patch hit and 90% of my 1v1s is chaos. And 9 out of 10 they are bad and crying how fuckin OP eldar still are and how they can't do anything. Now that 1 guy with leveled ships, proper skills and general knowledge about the Eldar is a diffrent story. Against such an opponent I actually have to try really hard in order not to lose. I need to utilize my skills properly, chain blinds, make sury my engagment direction is optimal and generally have to micro a lot of stuff very fast or a lot of bad stuff happens very fast. As a rule I don't use TC as it feels like I'm cheating so ye, handicapping myself FTW. And just for the record I still probably will lose.
Now for the contoversial opinion part.
The VS is right probably the weakest BS on its own as it does not have the consistent firepower to take down other BSs.


Here is the problem,you are crippling yourself to not be too strong. That's exactly the same thing i used to do with orks by not stacking taunt+traktors. If you need to purposefully contain yourself to not beat the cr*p out of every other faction there is a problem to tackle (as they did with orks). For the rest,i don't know your level of skill but what i see is,as an ork/imp/chaos player you have to be some sort of master and commander guy in order to win a game against a decent eldar player,if the eldar player is good himself you are still screwed.

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Fr33Th1nk3r
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Re: Revised opinions on the Orks and Eldar

Postby Fr33Th1nk3r » 12 June 2016, 17:49

Has anyone tried using the Zzap with 0 cannons and only guns with all the guns upgrades?


I think I'm just going to stay with my stasis+mwj+front kannon ram build. Change my Deathdeala to Zzap teef snacher and instead use that extra upgrade slot for fires where the AP was.
"Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot."
- Carl Sagan

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Bludfist
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Re: Revised opinions on the Orks and Eldar

Postby Bludfist » 12 June 2016, 18:17

Fr33Th1nk3r wrote:Has anyone tried using the Zzap with 0 cannons and only guns with all the guns upgrades?


I think I'm just going to stay with my stasis+mwj+front kannon ram build. Change my Deathdeala to Zzap teef snacher and instead use that extra upgrade slot for fires where the AP was.

Kinda a waste, a 137 speed Deathdela with x2 Zzzap slows and a double mega kannon is much stronger.

The more ive played and tested with, ive come to realize that the more dakka upgrade is a massive noob trap. You have to blow a special order and a upgrade slot (2 upgrade slots for the order duration upgrade as well) to make gunz even halfway decent for 40s (60s with the order upgrade) and their damage output is still inferior to the dps output of kannonz whom not only do more damage but also becuase of their much higher crit chance, they are also better at taking out subsystems

You should not have to blow your special orders and and 2 upgrade slots to make a weapon even remotely decent for 60s all the while being still being inferior to kannonz
Chaos walking into Aldorf be like
Spoiler : :
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Fr33Th1nk3r
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Re: Revised opinions on the Orks and Eldar

Postby Fr33Th1nk3r » 12 June 2016, 19:25

Yeah that's what I'm getting at. They've got like 3 upgrades for gunz now. Gunz really suck when you need a lot of alpha quick.
"Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot."
- Carl Sagan

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malcontent333
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Re: Revised opinions on the Orks and Eldar

Postby malcontent333 » 13 June 2016, 04:18

I usually play orks and I'm cool with everything except loosing my skannerz and my kannaon range upgrade. I've been having a lot of fun with a mid range broadside build with heavy gunz and lotsa guns. Plus range and scanners were always my first 2 with the rest being shooty or tanky depending on my whim. Now I feel even more like a one trick pony.
Orkz is never beatin in battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we legz it we don't die neither, so we can come back for annuver go, see!

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Stanley Pain
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Re: Revised opinions on the Orks and Eldar

Postby Stanley Pain » 13 June 2016, 11:21

My initial thoughts were that Orkz had been nerfed too much and that Eldar weren't nerfed enough.

After spending a good portion of the weekend playing I still hold a similar thought. I think Orkz are ALMOST in a good spot, some small tweaks and they'll be ROIGHT PROPPA! I'm kinda loving the Plasma Engine upgrade, lets you get stuck in and play very aggressively with a nice little boom if you end up getting blow up. The scanner range removal feels out of place though but it's mostly workable. Some tweaks to the hull breach/fire might be needed since it seems like EVERYTHING crits a lot more now. Zzaps seem ok, but eating 3 upgrade slots to make them useful is a bit much.


Eldar still need a ton of work. Encounters are still much too binary. Someone either counters you and there's nothing you can do about it, or you proceed to kill the enemy. The Voidstalker is still a beast of a ship, even at 9k mainly due to the fact that the cooldown on Pulsars was lowered. I'm not sure that was the right thing to do along side it's damage reduction. The Starcannon upgrade that makes you shoot faster when using "reload" seems to be completely broken and/or useless because I haven't noticed it doing a damn thing.

Halstead
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Re: Revised opinions on the Orks and Eldar

Postby Halstead » 13 June 2016, 13:10

Stanley Pain wrote: The Starcannon upgrade that makes you shoot faster when using "reload" seems to be completely broken and/or useless because I haven't noticed it doing a damn thing.
Have you been focusing on one target?

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Stanley Pain
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Re: Revised opinions on the Orks and Eldar

Postby Stanley Pain » 13 June 2016, 13:34

Halstead wrote:
Stanley Pain wrote: The Starcannon upgrade that makes you shoot faster when using "reload" seems to be completely broken and/or useless because I haven't noticed it doing a damn thing.
Have you been focusing on one target?


I tested with a friend in custom battles. I didn't notice it doing anything at all. Same DPS with or without it. The other upgrade is marginally better (270 degree firing arc). Stealth upgrade is still the best by far and MUCH less situational :)


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