Fundamental Space Marine problems

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Jerjare
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Fundamental Space Marine problems

Postby Jerjare » 09 October 2016, 05:58

One of Space Marines' biggest advantages is actually their biggest weakness. They have 75/75/75 armor, and low HP to balance this. The problem is there is so many things that can bypass that armor advantage and strike at the ship's chewy center. They also lack decent fighter screens, and so are particularly vulnerable to ordinance.

A big idea I had to offset this was to give the SM ways to mitigate the AP power of enemy attacks. This would be in the form of minimum armor ratings. If the SM player had +10 minimum armor, for example, an attack that would treat their armor as 25 would instead treat it as 35. AP macros would only reduce the armor by 15 instead of 25. And best of all, this would stack, so if you wanted a ship super-tanky, you could have one if you invested the upgrades.

Chapter Relic- Change it to letting the ship have +10 minimum armor rating. Offsetting lances and ordinance is more useful than +5 troops.

Techmarines- Every crew point of techmarines would give an additional +5 minimum armor rating.

Master of Sanctity- This is a very situational skill that is the least useful of the four favors. For every crew point invested, have it give the ship +10 minimum armor when the ability is active.

Now you have more opportunities to make the most out of your impressive armor rating. You can easily ignore AP macros outright, and significantly mitigate the effects of ordinance.

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Imperator5
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Re: Fundamental Space Marine problems

Postby Imperator5 » 09 October 2016, 09:10

I just think that they should have normal health. An easier fix, their crappy damage already compensates for their good armour.
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

Please help me change skirmish to be customisable. Its very important for PVE players.

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Scorch715
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Re: Fundamental Space Marine problems

Postby Scorch715 » 09 October 2016, 13:56

Can you imagine the twin battle barges with these upgrades? Two heavily armoured battleships that then also make all the AP weapons brought against them significantly weaker. In short, that makes them almost invulnerable to the IN and Orks, and up to a 25% in the damage Chaos and others can do.

Any fix to the marines needs to primarily be for the cruisers. Give the cruisers a 100 hp buff at least, or maybe even a hp buff as an upgrade. Another option, every skill point in the techmarine gives a 50 hp buff

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Ahzek Ahriman
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Re: Fundamental Space Marine problems

Postby Ahzek Ahriman » 09 October 2016, 15:16

A bit more health to cruisers (all), some buffs to macro battry damage and that's all they need.

But they gotta be slight, SM although weaker race than all others, are definitely not weak. People easily stay competitive with them, any major buffs would change that 180 degrees, like it happend a couple of times with orks already.
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Jerjare
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Re: Fundamental Space Marine problems

Postby Jerjare » 09 October 2016, 17:09

Space Marines are more vulnerable to ordinance than any other faction. They can only take 1 fighter squadron at a time. They pay the same premium for having a carrier variant, but only get assault boats default; you have to spend a skill to get fighters and an upgrade to get bombers.

75 armor all around is pretty much useless in multiplayer where 90% of the attacks you face will ignore most of it anyway. They're very vulnerable to bombers and torpedoes compared to other factions.

Vanguards are like something in-between an escort and a Light Cruiser, but are priced like other light cruiser in spite of the HP deficit.

Compare their strengths and weaknesses to Orks: Orks on paper seem 'bad' because they have a ton of maluses- 2x hull breach/fire damage, slow to turn, no silent running, bad morale. But the devs gave Orks a kit to help overcome this- They have tons of HP (so taking extra crit damage isn't as bad), they are incredibly cheap points wise (giving you a better HP/points ratio than any other faction), can Rally mutiny ships, zappas that slow enemies down from far away, and mostly great favors that mesh well with their playstyle. I think Orks are a lot of fun and had assumed Marines were going to play similar to Orks but with faster, more maneuverable, heavily armored but extremely expensive ships. Instead, we have a big strength (75 armor all around) completely nullified. I don't think just giving them more HP is the solution, they need to find a way to make the ARMOR that they have already actually useful.

One suggestion that would primarily affect SM would be to change bomber damage to applying the rear armor of the ship. Vs most opponents they would function the same but vs SM they would be rolling against 75 armor and so SM would be a lot more resilient to bomber attacks compared to other factions.

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Imperator5
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Re: Fundamental Space Marine problems

Postby Imperator5 » 09 October 2016, 18:11

Eh lances and torps are too good against marines too. Only thing to solve this is a health boost to them.
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

Please help me change skirmish to be customisable. Its very important for PVE players.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=515 Mod idea.

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Ahzek Ahriman
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Re: Fundamental Space Marine problems

Postby Ahzek Ahriman » 09 October 2016, 18:15

Jerjare wrote:Space Marines are more vulnerable to ordinance than any other faction. They can only take 1 fighter squadron at a time. They pay the same premium for having a carrier variant, but only get assault boats default; you have to spend a skill to get fighters and an upgrade to get bombers.

75 armor all around is pretty much useless in multiplayer where 90% of the attacks you face will ignore most of it anyway. They're very vulnerable to bombers and torpedoes compared to other factions.

Vanguards are like something in-between an escort and a Light Cruiser, but are priced like other light cruiser in spite of the HP deficit.

Compare their strengths and weaknesses to Orks: Orks on paper seem 'bad' because they have a ton of maluses- 2x hull breach/fire damage, slow to turn, no silent running, bad morale. But the devs gave Orks a kit to help overcome this- They have tons of HP (so taking extra crit damage isn't as bad), they are incredibly cheap points wise (giving you a better HP/points ratio than any other faction), can Rally mutiny ships, zappas that slow enemies down from far away, and mostly great favors that mesh well with their playstyle. I think Orks are a lot of fun and had assumed Marines were going to play similar to Orks but with faster, more maneuverable, heavily armored but extremely expensive ships. Instead, we have a big strength (75 armor all around) completely nullified. I don't think just giving them more HP is the solution, they need to find a way to make the ARMOR that they have already actually useful.

One suggestion that would primarily affect SM would be to change bomber damage to applying the rear armor of the ship. Vs most opponents they would function the same but vs SM they would be rolling against 75 armor and so SM would be a lot more resilient to bomber attacks compared to other factions.


And make bombers crit engine or generator every 3rd time, great idea you have there. Resitance to macros/vulnerability to AP is a good faction trait, they only need some small, basic improvements to lighters ships so they are not useless compared to BB's.
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MadDemiurg
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Re: Fundamental Space Marine problems

Postby MadDemiurg » 09 October 2016, 18:44

I'd buff most weapons on LCs (they suck so badly), give strike cruisers +100 shield and make fighter skill launch 2 squadrons on strike cruiser and 3 on battle barge (maybe still 2, 3 might be an overkill given that it has its own relatively short cooldown). I feel that would sort it out. Leveled up an SM admiral recently and was able to still win the majority of the games so they are not THAT bad.

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Re: Fundamental Space Marine problems

Postby Pleb Squasher » 13 October 2016, 02:59

Jerjare wrote:One of Space Marines' biggest advantages is actually their biggest weakness. They have 75/75/75 armor, and low HP to balance this. The problem is there is so many things that can bypass that armor advantage and strike at the ship's chewy center. They also lack decent fighter screens, and so are particularly vulnerable to ordinance.

A big idea I had to offset this was to give the SM ways to mitigate the AP power of enemy attacks. This would be in the form of minimum armor ratings. If the SM player had +10 minimum armor, for example, an attack that would treat their armor as 25 would instead treat it as 35. AP macros would only reduce the armor by 15 instead of 25. And best of all, this would stack, so if you wanted a ship super-tanky, you could have one if you invested the upgrades.

Chapter Relic- Change it to letting the ship have +10 minimum armor rating. Offsetting lances and ordinance is more useful than +5 troops.

Techmarines- Every crew point of techmarines would give an additional +5 minimum armor rating.

Master of Sanctity- This is a very situational skill that is the least useful of the four favors. For every crew point invested, have it give the ship +10 minimum armor when the ability is active.

Now you have more opportunities to make the most out of your impressive armor rating. You can easily ignore AP macros outright, and significantly mitigate the effects of ordinance.


On your first point:
SM hulls are poorly designed. If you have ever tried fighting SM with any kind of fleet that relies on macro type weapons you'll have serious problems. Obviously IN and Chaos can take AP ammo however without this upgrade macro armed ships are almost entirely useless against SM vessels. Orks don't have any AP option and once zzap are finally balanced out they'll have no chance against SM at all.
Obviously the big issue for SM is lances, however that's a difficult discussion as you can't overnerf lances, but at the same time giving SM hulls standard hull points in the factions current state would make them disgustingly op.

A big idea I had to offset this was to give the SM ways to mitigate the AP power of enemy attacks. This would be in the form of minimum armor ratings. If the SM player had +10 minimum armor, for example, an attack that would treat their armor as 25 would instead treat it as 35. AP macros would only reduce the armor by 15 instead of 25. And best of all, this would stack, so if you wanted a ship super-tanky, you could have one if you invested the upgrades.

On this point:
No way do SM deserve this trait. It has been confirmed that when using brace, SM armour goes up to 95! That's a 95% chance that no macro damage will get through. 75% is already bad enough, 95% is ludicrous and if anything, SM armour values need nerfs regarding the use of brace.

They also lack decent fighter screens, and so are particularly vulnerable to ordinance.

SM fighter options are limited for a reason, it's so that ppl can rely more on bombers to fight SM which you need because bombers ignore armour. Also, while it's only 1 squad, it respawns for free every minute and doesn't put your thunder hawks on CD. Remember that when other factions want to deploy fighters, they forgo the use of bombers until the ability comes off CD once more. So the SM fighters are actually a great option and they take a skill slot, not an upgrade slot!


Ap macros aren't the ultimate solution to beating SM as the IN, however they are still necessary. As SM, you should only be within 3k of the enemy while boarding, otherwise you'll want to keep your distance. So AP ammo isn't that much of a threat if you play right.

If we want to see changes to SM durability, he changes should revolve around making them more durable vs Chaos as SM stand no chance against them due to their high number of lances + bombers. You could give SM standard hull points, but you'd have to nerf their armour so that they didn't ruin macro reliant fleets.
IMO, when played by someone who knows what they're doing SM are actually extremely strong as they are, the only issues being VS Chaos. If SM are going to get any kind of durability buffs, we would need to see boarding torps fixed and nerfed first.

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Imperator5
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Re: Fundamental Space Marine problems

Postby Imperator5 » 13 October 2016, 16:40

Pleb Squasher wrote:
Jerjare wrote:One of Space Marines' biggest advantages is actually their biggest weakness. They have 75/75/75 armor, and low HP to balance this. The problem is there is so many things that can bypass that armor advantage and strike at the ship's chewy center. They also lack decent fighter screens, and so are particularly vulnerable to ordinance.

A big idea I had to offset this was to give the SM ways to mitigate the AP power of enemy attacks. This would be in the form of minimum armor ratings. If the SM player had +10 minimum armor, for example, an attack that would treat their armor as 25 would instead treat it as 35. AP macros would only reduce the armor by 15 instead of 25. And best of all, this would stack, so if you wanted a ship super-tanky, you could have one if you invested the upgrades.

Chapter Relic- Change it to letting the ship have +10 minimum armor rating. Offsetting lances and ordinance is more useful than +5 troops.

Techmarines- Every crew point of techmarines would give an additional +5 minimum armor rating.

Master of Sanctity- This is a very situational skill that is the least useful of the four favors. For every crew point invested, have it give the ship +10 minimum armor when the ability is active.

Now you have more opportunities to make the most out of your impressive armor rating. You can easily ignore AP macros outright, and significantly mitigate the effects of ordinance.


On your first point:
SM hulls are poorly designed. If you have ever tried fighting SM with any kind of fleet that relies on macro type weapons you'll have serious problems. Obviously IN and Chaos can take AP ammo however without this upgrade macro armed ships are almost entirely useless against SM vessels. Orks don't have any AP option and once zzap are finally balanced out they'll have no chance against SM at all.
Obviously the big issue for SM is lances, however that's a difficult discussion as you can't overnerf lances, but at the same time giving SM hulls standard hull points in the factions current state would make them disgustingly op.

A big idea I had to offset this was to give the SM ways to mitigate the AP power of enemy attacks. This would be in the form of minimum armor ratings. If the SM player had +10 minimum armor, for example, an attack that would treat their armor as 25 would instead treat it as 35. AP macros would only reduce the armor by 15 instead of 25. And best of all, this would stack, so if you wanted a ship super-tanky, you could have one if you invested the upgrades.

On this point:
No way do SM deserve this trait. It has been confirmed that when using brace, SM armour goes up to 95! That's a 95% chance that no macro damage will get through. 75% is already bad enough, 95% is ludicrous and if anything, SM armour values need nerfs regarding the use of brace.

They also lack decent fighter screens, and so are particularly vulnerable to ordinance.

SM fighter options are limited for a reason, it's so that ppl can rely more on bombers to fight SM which you need because bombers ignore armour. Also, while it's only 1 squad, it respawns for free every minute and doesn't put your thunder hawks on CD. Remember that when other factions want to deploy fighters, they forgo the use of bombers until the ability comes off CD once more. So the SM fighters are actually a great option and they take a skill slot, not an upgrade slot!


Ap macros aren't the ultimate solution to beating SM as the IN, however they are still necessary. As SM, you should only be within 3k of the enemy while boarding, otherwise you'll want to keep your distance. So AP ammo isn't that much of a threat if you play right.

If we want to see changes to SM durability, he changes should revolve around making them more durable vs Chaos as SM stand no chance against them due to their high number of lances + bombers. You could give SM standard hull points, but you'd have to nerf their armour so that they didn't ruin macro reliant fleets.
IMO, when played by someone who knows what they're doing SM are actually extremely strong as they are, the only issues being VS Chaos. If SM are going to get any kind of durability buffs, we would need to see boarding torps fixed and nerfed first.



Ignoring the whole point of SM macros being utter shit.

No, SM just need a flat out health boost. their armour just compensates for their utter lack of damage dealing.
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

Please help me change skirmish to be customisable. Its very important for PVE players.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=515 Mod idea.


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