Tau armor and outflanking

General discussion regarding the Tau Empire beta.
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Sir A Harris
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Re: Tau armor and outflanking

Postby Sir A Harris » 15 September 2016, 19:49

Imperator5 wrote:
Sir A Harris wrote:
Ashardalon wrote:one problem i have, you cant target the prow
you can target weaponry and then hope
and they have a pretty high amount of separate weaponry
critting the prow is a massive hit for tau removing some of their strengths, but with crits needing to first happen then system crit then weapon crit then hit the right prow weapon among 12 separate turreted ones
am i missing something?


yeah, but all you see when you see a tau ship is the prow


I do not think that the facing matters when the criticals are rolled for, does it?


nah, but its big, which reduces your chance of missing, which increase your chance of crits
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Imperator5
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Re: Tau armor and outflanking

Postby Imperator5 » 15 September 2016, 19:54

Sir A Harris wrote:
Imperator5 wrote:
Sir A Harris wrote:
yeah, but all you see when you see a tau ship is the prow


I do not think that the facing matters when the criticals are rolled for, does it?


nah, but its big, which reduces your chance of missing, which increase your chance of crits


Its no bigger than the other races broadsides. So that only matters with Eldar and their narrow prows, really.
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Ashardalon
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Re: Tau armor and outflanking

Postby Ashardalon » 15 September 2016, 19:59

nope doesnt matter
like i said i think it works: first you roll to crit, then you roll what kind and need to get either system perma or temp so 2in4?
then you roll system and prow is not a system so weapons 1 in 5
then you have to hit a prow weapon (do tau prows work like orks?) and on tau those weapons are separate unlike an imperial macro battery where you can take out 4 cannons with one crit dont remember the specifics but i remember a protector having 8? separate macros and 2 lances at least and then 2? more i assume prow weapons are the launch bays so a 2 in 14? chance?
facing doesnt matter in any of this

size doesnt really matter in this its the same rolls for torps 11%crit chance and while it is an easier target to ram, ramming cant do crits
Last edited by Ashardalon on 15 September 2016, 20:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Sir A Harris
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Re: Tau armor and outflanking

Postby Sir A Harris » 15 September 2016, 20:03

Ashardalon wrote:nope doesnt matter
like i said i think it works: first you roll to crit, then you roll what kind and need to get either system perma or temp so 2in4?
then you roll system and prow is not a system so weapons 1 in 5
then you have to hit a prow weapon (do tau prows work like orks?) and on tau those weapons are separate unlike an imperial macro battery where you can take out 4 cannons with one crit dont remember the specifics but i remember a protector having 8? separate macros and 2 lances at least and then 2? more i assume prow weapons are the launch bays so a 2 in 12? chance?
facing doesnt matter in any of this

size doesnt really matter in this its the same rolls for torps 11%crit chance and while it is an easier target to ram, ramming cant do crits


never the less its not op in any sense of the word. unless people want other races to debuff after a crit?
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Ashardalon
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Re: Tau armor and outflanking

Postby Ashardalon » 15 September 2016, 20:11

just saying that "you can crit the prow" is not really a counter strategy when you have no way of targeting the prow, if it was generators sure you can target those but hitting the weapon, makes sense too since you need power to make those repellor fields work
since there are people who dont even believe in the power of targeting specific systems because of how nebulous the bonus is
saying just target the prow is kinda silly
ps i do believe in the power of targeting the right systems, it is an essential part of some of my strategy's
but i would like a more specific system, sometimes i want to go in wreck a nova cannon and then hide again currently eventho the weapon is huge you cant actually target it

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Re: Tau armor and outflanking

Postby Little Green Mensch » 15 September 2016, 20:48

Yeah, I haven't found a way to target specific facings - was there anything posted by devs that describes exactly how critical hits work? Specifically, I wonder if weapon crit chances in a given arc are increased if you are facing that arc. I vaguely remember getting a disproportionate percentage of prow crits playing as Imperial Navy (but this could just be recall bias).

In tabletop, you couldn't target subsystems at all, and it was completely random. Nonetheless, losing your prow armor bonus was a huge pain, especially since you also lost a bunch of weaponry at the same time.

One thing I think would help is taking some of the Tau weapons batteries and making them front 90 degrees only - in the Forgeworld lists, the Tau got a more than 50% reduction in firepower outside the front arc. This gives an extra bonus to get around the Tau with careful maneuvering.

The other thing to note is that Tau have no counters to long-range gunnery and lances. So long as you can break detection, all their ordnance is useless. They can't even dumb-fire their torpedoes to force you to maneuver away (which, tbh, I hope the devs change).

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Ahzek Ahriman
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Re: Tau armor and outflanking

Postby Ahzek Ahriman » 16 September 2016, 01:00

Little Green Mensch wrote:Yeah, I haven't found a way to target specific facings - was there anything posted by devs that describes exactly how critical hits work? Specifically, I wonder if weapon crit chances in a given arc are increased if you are facing that arc. I vaguely remember getting a disproportionate percentage of prow crits playing as Imperial Navy (but this could just be recall bias).

In tabletop, you couldn't target subsystems at all, and it was completely random. Nonetheless, losing your prow armor bonus was a huge pain, especially since you also lost a bunch of weaponry at the same time.

One thing I think would help is taking some of the Tau weapons batteries and making them front 90 degrees only - in the Forgeworld lists, the Tau got a more than 50% reduction in firepower outside the front arc. This gives an extra bonus to get around the Tau with careful maneuvering.

The other thing to note is that Tau have no counters to long-range gunnery and lances. So long as you can break detection, all their ordnance is useless. They can't even dumb-fire their torpedoes to force you to maneuver away (which, tbh, I hope the devs change).


Gameplay questions thread, they explained it in detail. Basically first the game rolls for crit, then (if succeeded) it rolls for what part is critted (or if it's just fire/hull breach, don't remember if those 2 have separate roll before choosing system), and if you choose a system to prioritize (like generator) the game simply rerolls the system choice again if you missed (so if the game rolled engine, it will roll again and may or may not hit generator, whichever is hit by the reroll is taken as a final result). Very table-topy. Which means the prioritizing system sucks ass but what can you do. For more details, just use the search option and look in in threads made by Sio'are.
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Imperator5
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Re: Tau armor and outflanking

Postby Imperator5 » 16 September 2016, 01:40

Only Chaos is good at long range lances at the moment.
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Anzor
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Re: Tau armor and outflanking

Postby Anzor » 03 October 2016, 10:47

I think the problem is that Tau really aren't truly weak at short range as their tooltip suggests. They've got turret upgrades, and experimental railgun to lay the smackdown at close range, plus with Mont Ka the rate they crit you is insane personally I think they should take an accuracy dip at 3k and get a bit extra at 9k as well as get the deflector reduced to 50%. It's ridiculous that only the Orks can go toe to toe & win against the Tau's "weakness" at close range. And before anyone comes in with just board them, only Orks & Space Marines can successfully board with any kind of certainty, and Emperor help you if he's a fire cast with troop upgrades rocking 82+ troop score on cruisers.

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MadDemiurg
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Re: Tau armor and outflanking

Postby MadDemiurg » 03 October 2016, 18:07

Tau are not strong at long range as their tooltip suggests either though. They're actually doing their best at 6k range. They also can't really kite so "weak at close range" design won't work for them unless they can deal enough damage to blow up ships on approach.


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