Eldar meta too unfulfilling?

Share your ideas and suggestions for Battlefleet Gothic: Armada.
TheGoldenChicken
Posts: 45
Joined: 12 April 2016, 20:04
Contact:

Eldar meta too unfulfilling?

Postby TheGoldenChicken » 16 April 2016, 20:49

So I've been playing quite a bit against Eldar the last few days, both as chaos and as the imperium, and I've already grown very VERY angry at Eldar players, because of a mixture of boredom and annoyance over what seems to be the only two strategies in play during an Eldar game.

Eldar meta:
1. Find big ship
2. Move all ships close to big ship
3. Fire pulsars
4. Lightning strike
5. Retreat
6. Wait for pulsars to recharge
7. Repeat

Imperium/Chaos vs Eldar meta:
1. Use MWJ, Taunt, all ahead full to get very close to Eldar ship
2. Ram
3. Board
4. Repeat

Now the reason I think these are some of the only strategies being used in Eldar vs non Eldar games, is because of the weakness of other Eldar weaponry, and holofields. Now Eldar shuriken cannons are quite pitiful, you need a lot of them in order to make them function somewhat well. They do a number on void shields, but absolutely SUCK against armor, on the other hand, pulsars are GODLY, they're able to drop even battleships in very few volleys.

Now the reason I think ramming is the only strategy being used by non Eldar players, is because of holofields, they're fucking annoying. This is because if you aren't the very most favoured son of RNGesus, you're never going to get a single piece of damage onto the Eldar ships. I've sat minutes on end, firing at Eldar escors, only to finally destroy them in a ram, because not a single one of my lances or cannons would do any damage. Ramming and boarding are unaffected by holofields, and are therefore the most viable strategies.

Now a couple of ideas I have that might solve this:
- Buff shuriken cannons, escpecially vs armor
- Nerf pulsars, perhaps their time between pulses, perhaps their cooldown, perhaps straight up their damage.
- Reduce the amount of time between Eldar boosts, to make it easier to opponents to punish reckless moves
- Reduce the amount of damage Eldar take from rams
- Reduce the chances of holofields absorbing attacks, or give them a chance to simply reduce damage
- Change holofield to reduce damage based on ship speed, rather than completely absorb damage

User avatar
Kadaeux
Posts: 517
Joined: 05 November 2015, 05:38
Location: NSW, Australia
Contact:

Re: Eldar meta too unfulfilling?

Postby Kadaeux » 16 April 2016, 22:35

TheGoldenChicken wrote:So I've been playing quite a bit against Eldar the last few days, both as chaos and as the imperium, and I've already grown very VERY angry at Eldar players, because of a mixture of boredom and annoyance over what seems to be the only two strategies in play during an Eldar game.


Boohoo. You got made because you don't like how a lot of people play? That is truly sad.

Now a couple of ideas I have that might solve this:
- Buff shuriken cannons, escpecially vs armor
- Nerf pulsars, perhaps their time between pulses, perhaps their cooldown, perhaps straight up their damage.
- Reduce the amount of time between Eldar boosts, to make it easier to opponents to punish reckless moves
- Reduce the amount of damage Eldar take from rams
- Reduce the chances of holofields absorbing attacks, or give them a chance to simply reduce damage
- Change holofield to reduce damage based on ship speed, rather than completely absorb damage


In order.
-Shurikens should be replaced with Laser or Starcannon batteries. Making them Shurikens was a bit of an episode in absurdity (like giving them a favour that allows people to lightning strike something of which every craftworld only has one of.) They don't need a buff against armour, they do no worse against armour than every other weapons battery. They just don't do as much noticeable damage per hit.
-Pulsars don't need a nerf. They take a good deal of skill to use (or sustained TacCog use) accurately.
-People are complaining already about how fast the Eldar can use their solar boost and you want to shrink the cooldown further?
-Fuck no. The Eldar ships are frail constructs. They CAN'T take rams, shouldn't take rams, and never should be permitted to even try.
-No way.
-No fucking way.

Specifically to the last two points. Doing that shit turns them not into glass cannons, but balls of rice paper being tossed into a furnace, they already have a 2x the chance of being crit compared to any other race, or 1.5 with an upgrade, and that chance to crit is PER HIT, if you make the holofields into an idiotic 'it just reduces damage from hits' instead of negating hits, then the Eldar are being hit with a significantly higher chance to suffer criticals than any other race ever since they don't have the armour (and shouldn't) to take those hits like ALL other factions can.

User avatar
Imperator5
(Former) Technical Tester
Posts: 3063
Joined: 22 December 2015, 07:46
Contact:

Re: Eldar meta too unfulfilling?

Postby Imperator5 » 16 April 2016, 23:18

Pulsars are easy mode and so is taunt.

Just turn off the move and attack, and it autoaims pulsar for you.

Just put ship to broadside after pulsar, and taunt cant effect it.

GG you won the game.
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

Please help me change skirmish to be customisable. Its very important for PVE players.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=515 Mod idea.

TheGoldenChicken
Posts: 45
Joined: 12 April 2016, 20:04
Contact:

Re: Eldar meta too unfulfilling?

Postby TheGoldenChicken » 17 April 2016, 09:00

Kadaeux wrote:
TheGoldenChicken wrote:So I've been playing quite a bit against Eldar the last few days, both as chaos and as the imperium, and I've already grown very VERY angry at Eldar players, because of a mixture of boredom and annoyance over what seems to be the only two strategies in play during an Eldar game.


Boohoo. You got made because you don't like how a lot of people play? That is truly sad.

Now a couple of ideas I have that might solve this:
- Buff shuriken cannons, escpecially vs armor
- Nerf pulsars, perhaps their time between pulses, perhaps their cooldown, perhaps straight up their damage.
- Reduce the amount of time between Eldar boosts, to make it easier to opponents to punish reckless moves
- Reduce the amount of damage Eldar take from rams
- Reduce the chances of holofields absorbing attacks, or give them a chance to simply reduce damage
- Change holofield to reduce damage based on ship speed, rather than completely absorb damage


In order.
-Shurikens should be replaced with Laser or Starcannon batteries. Making them Shurikens was a bit of an episode in absurdity (like giving them a favour that allows people to lightning strike something of which every craftworld only has one of.) They don't need a buff against armour, they do no worse against armour than every other weapons battery. They just don't do as much noticeable damage per hit.
-Pulsars don't need a nerf. They take a good deal of skill to use (or sustained TacCog use) accurately.
-People are complaining already about how fast the Eldar can use their solar boost and you want to shrink the cooldown further?
-Fuck no. The Eldar ships are frail constructs. They CAN'T take rams, shouldn't take rams, and never should be permitted to even try.
-No way.
-No fucking way.

Specifically to the last two points. Doing that shit turns them not into glass cannons, but balls of rice paper being tossed into a furnace, they already have a 2x the chance of being crit compared to any other race, or 1.5 with an upgrade, and that chance to crit is PER HIT, if you make the holofields into an idiotic 'it just reduces damage from hits' instead of negating hits, then the Eldar are being hit with a significantly higher chance to suffer criticals than any other race ever since they don't have the armour (and shouldn't) to take those hits like ALL other factions can.



As imperetor5 said: Pulsars aren't that difficult to aim, unless you're doing it while flying top speed all the while wobbling all over the place. Some of what I wanted with this post, was to point out how much different the Eldar were from the remaining 3 factions, and how they should be changed to look more like the other factions.

Now I made a mistake in saying they should reduce the cooldown of solar boost, I meant increase the cooldown, so that Eldar players can't charge in and out all the time with little or no consequence.

What I really want with the holofield changes, is to make fighting the Eldar less of an RNG fest, and more like fighting the remaining three races. Now granted every race should have something that makes them unique, the Eldar just have it a bit too much in my opinion. In return for the reducing holofield effectiveness, or at least changing it, you could give Eldar an only 1.5x mulitiplyer for suffering critical damage, in many cases, even if you deal critical damage to their weapon systems, they already have so many damn guns, that it barely makes any difference.

In my opinion, Eldar should be more about attacking the enemy's blindside, and manoeuvring out of their field of fire, than they should be engaging for pulsar duration and retreating to wait for cooldown, all the while tanking damage with their holofields.

User avatar
Kadaeux
Posts: 517
Joined: 05 November 2015, 05:38
Location: NSW, Australia
Contact:

Re: Eldar meta too unfulfilling?

Postby Kadaeux » 17 April 2016, 09:05

TheGoldenChicken wrote:As imperetor5 said: Pulsars aren't that difficult to aim, unless you're doing it while flying top speed all the while wobbling all over the place. Some of what I wanted with this post, was to point out how much different the Eldar were from the remaining 3 factions, and how they should be changed to look more like the other factions.


And the idea they should be "changed to look more like the other factions" is disgusting. They're not like other factions and no effort should be made to change that.

Now I made a mistake in saying they should reduce the cooldown of solar boost, I meant increase the cooldown, so that Eldar players can't charge in and out all the time with little or no consequence.


That makes more sense, but I disagree, the boost doesn't last long at all, and despite it's quick recharge it isn't enough to escape a boosting Chaos fleet rigged for speed.

What I really want with the holofield changes, is to make fighting the Eldar less of an RNG fest, and more like fighting the remaining three races. Now granted every race should have something that makes them unique, the Eldar just have it a bit too much in my opinion. In return for the reducing holofield effectiveness, or at least changing it, you could give Eldar an only 1.5x mulitiplyer for suffering critical damage, in many cases, even if you deal critical damage to their weapon systems, they already have so many damn guns, that it barely makes any difference.


No. End of story.

User avatar
Imperator5
(Former) Technical Tester
Posts: 3063
Joined: 22 December 2015, 07:46
Contact:

Re: Eldar meta too unfulfilling?

Postby Imperator5 » 17 April 2016, 14:56

Kadaeux wrote:
TheGoldenChicken wrote:As imperetor5 said: Pulsars aren't that difficult to aim, unless you're doing it while flying top speed all the while wobbling all over the place. Some of what I wanted with this post, was to point out how much different the Eldar were from the remaining 3 factions, and how they should be changed to look more like the other factions.


And the idea they should be "changed to look more like the other factions" is disgusting. They're not like other factions and no effort should be made to change that.

Now I made a mistake in saying they should reduce the cooldown of solar boost, I meant increase the cooldown, so that Eldar players can't charge in and out all the time with little or no consequence.


That makes more sense, but I disagree, the boost doesn't last long at all, and despite it's quick recharge it isn't enough to escape a boosting Chaos fleet rigged for speed.

What I really want with the holofield changes, is to make fighting the Eldar less of an RNG fest, and more like fighting the remaining three races. Now granted every race should have something that makes them unique, the Eldar just have it a bit too much in my opinion. In return for the reducing holofield effectiveness, or at least changing it, you could give Eldar an only 1.5x mulitiplyer for suffering critical damage, in many cases, even if you deal critical damage to their weapon systems, they already have so many damn guns, that it barely makes any difference.


No. End of story.


They are an instant win faction, they are not like the other factions. Other factions can loose without the eldar player having to go AFK.

Their burst is long enough to save them from literally ANY aoe.
Torps? Check. Ramming? Check. Novas? check. Bombs? Check. They don't even need boost to get out of all those, except for Novas when the damn Novas actually hit, they are aimed by stromtroopers anyway.
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

Please help me change skirmish to be customisable. Its very important for PVE players.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=515 Mod idea.

User avatar
Bosie
Posts: 556
Joined: 13 March 2016, 14:36
Contact:

Re: Eldar meta too unfulfilling?

Postby Bosie » 17 April 2016, 16:39

I'll post this in this thread too, as I am yet to see any evidence that holos especilay when combined with pulsars are balanced in any way. If you find fault with my math please tell me and show me.

Imp vs Eldar light cruiser 1 v 1 battle at 3K range. Initially you would think the Imp would have this. It's his territory after all.

The Imp will land 80% of his shots on the Eldar from his maco cannons. He's got 2 turrets and 1 broad side he can bring to bear. 5 attacks in the alpha with 4 (for 3 damage each) coming every 3 seconds and the other one (for 6 damage) every 9 seconds. This gives this ship an DPS of 4.7. 80% of this will hit the Eldar so he lands 3.76 DPS on the Eldar. The holo will stop 90% of this. He is now doing 0.376 DPS. The Eldar's armour then stops 25% of this. He is now doing 0.282 DPS to the Eldar.

Let's now look at the Eldar's DPS. He has 2 Prow Pulsars on his LC. Each does 3 attacks at 30 damage every 30 seconds and treats all armour as if it was 25% and does not suffer RNG to hit. This gives the Eldar 6 DPS. This is reduced to 4.5 by the Imperial's armour. The Eldar now does a solid 4.5 DPS, via a 30 second alpha. An alpha of 180 raw damage every 30 seconds, or 135 direct to the hull.

This is how I worked out my numbers:
(attacks x damage) / rate of fire = DPS
DPS x armour = damage taken
(DPS x hit rate) x holo x armour = damage taken

Imperial Raw DPS:
(4 x 3) / 3 = 4
(1 x 6) / 9 = 0.67
4 + 0.67 = 4.67 DPS

Eldar Raw DPS:
(6 x 30) / 30 = 6 DPS

From the numbers we get above we can see that if the Eldar are fragile hit and run ships this all looks good so far. They should do more damage, they have less health on their ships. The have the worst firing arcs in the game. Yeah this looks good.

Imperial Damage Dealt:
(4.67 x 0.8) x 0.1 x 0.75 = 0.28 damage per second to the Eldar's hull.

Eldar Damage Dealt:
6 x 0.75 = 4.5 damage per second to the Imperial's hull.

Now it starts to look bad, very bad. These fragile ships are actually great tanks. They must first be hit, 80 chance at 3k, then they stop 90% of those hits. The 8%, yes 8%, of attacks that do hit their armour are then reduced by another 25% so that only 6% of ALL shots fired at them do damage. I'll say that again. Only 6% of all shots fired at an Eldar ship actually do damage.. But Bosie I hear you say lances always hit! Yes they do, and when you fire a lance at an Eldar 7.5% of them will do damage.

The Imperial ship has 600 hull and 100 shields. The shields will take 100% damage as they don't reduce the amount.
The Eldar ship has 400 hull and 90% damage mitigation shields that don't decay.

The Imperial ship needs around 23 minutes, yes minutes, to kill the Eldar ship.
The Eldar ship, assuming the Imp's shields come up for every 3rd attack, needs 7 attacks to kill the Imperial, with attack 7 being 120 damage overkill. That's 3.5 minutes. Nearly a tenth of the time of the Imperial.
Image
Image

User avatar
Kadaeux
Posts: 517
Joined: 05 November 2015, 05:38
Location: NSW, Australia
Contact:

Re: Eldar meta too unfulfilling?

Postby Kadaeux » 17 April 2016, 21:17

Imperator5 wrote:They are an instant win faction, they are not like the other factions. Other factions can loose without the eldar player having to go AFK.


No, they're not.

Their burst is long enough to save them from literally ANY aoe.
Torps? Check. Ramming? Check. Novas? check. Bombs? Check. They don't even need boost to get out of all those, except for Novas when the damn Novas actually hit, they are aimed by stromtroopers anyway.


That speaks more to the player's ability, not to the faction being in any way broken, given the amount of Eldar ship's i've blown apart with all of those.

User avatar
Imperator5
(Former) Technical Tester
Posts: 3063
Joined: 22 December 2015, 07:46
Contact:

Re: Eldar meta too unfulfilling?

Postby Imperator5 » 17 April 2016, 23:13

Kadaeux wrote:
Imperator5 wrote:They are an instant win faction, they are not like the other factions. Other factions can loose without the eldar player having to go AFK.


No, they're not.

Their burst is long enough to save them from literally ANY aoe.
Torps? Check. Ramming? Check. Novas? check. Bombs? Check. They don't even need boost to get out of all those, except for Novas when the damn Novas actually hit, they are aimed by stromtroopers anyway.


That speaks more to the player's ability, not to the faction being in any way broken, given the amount of Eldar ship's i've blown apart with all of those.


You must really be facing off the worst of the worst.
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

Please help me change skirmish to be customisable. Its very important for PVE players.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=515 Mod idea.

User avatar
Kadaeux
Posts: 517
Joined: 05 November 2015, 05:38
Location: NSW, Australia
Contact:

Re: Eldar meta too unfulfilling?

Postby Kadaeux » 18 April 2016, 00:20

Imperator5 wrote:
Kadaeux wrote:
Imperator5 wrote:They are an instant win faction, they are not like the other factions. Other factions can loose without the eldar player having to go AFK.


No, they're not.

Their burst is long enough to save them from literally ANY aoe.
Torps? Check. Ramming? Check. Novas? check. Bombs? Check. They don't even need boost to get out of all those, except for Novas when the damn Novas actually hit, they are aimed by stromtroopers anyway.


That speaks more to the player's ability, not to the faction being in any way broken, given the amount of Eldar ship's i've blown apart with all of those.


You must really be facing off the worst of the worst.


I think the same about anyone who have to face people that constantly complain about them being "instant win". The fact people are too inept to adjust to a different style of fighting to deal with the Eldar is the source of the problem, not any imbalance in the Eldar.

The fact is that they're FAR from overpowered like most people seem to believe is the case. (Note, I'm not saying they're underpowered either.)


Return to “Ideas & Suggestions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

cron