Space Marines concerns,FLUFF, Balance suggestions, Outlook on Game

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Space Marines concerns,FLUFF, Balance suggestions, Outlook on Game

Postby MYNAME? » 22 March 2016, 09:54

First off, I want all of us too quit losing our pants about the balance. I feel like these updates Nurfs and buff that have come through have just made the game even more imbalanced and is moving away from the Fluff.
Shit we are having a hard time getting 2 factions balanced.

In my Oppinion the Fluff would be the best way of getting most of the solutions to our problems we are having right now.

Starting with the Imperium.

Torpedos

Torpedos are not Armor Piercing in the fluff. Why am i getting a patch that is making torpedos have armor Pen? The only thing that should be tinkered with is the speed of these torpedos and a small damage bonus. Not the armor pen.
If you give Armor pen to torpedos this will make Eldar and Ork Torps OP. Orks and Eldar have GUIDED/Manned torpedos. Torpedos that will be more difficult to avoid if you go with the fluff that is.

Imperial Shields

Imperial Shields should have their Shields Buffed. In the Fluff they are better than all the other factions shields why are they same strength as chaos shields? Imperials are meant to take a pounding but are a little bit slower. But the great thing is in the Fluff they even out. Chaos have more guns to combat these shields and the agility to avoid some of the fire while the imperials can tank most of the damage and return the favor and than some. Imperials Better Shields/ Chaos better lances.

Nova Cannon

Yes here goes the Nova Cannon discussion again. But hear me out it COULD HELP WITH BALANCE ALOT AND STAY TRUE TO THE FLUFF.

They way the Nova cannon is being represented in this game is not just offensive to the fluff but offensive to the Nova Cannon as well. It is effectively an ANCIENT WEAPON. The Imperium cant afford to field more than 1 Nova cannon in a small fleet. Especially the size fleet you command in PVP. The Nova cannon is supposed to be a 1 shot wonder and also have a chance of being a 1 shot mistake. It is RISK AND REWARD WEAPON. Cut the 4 Nova Cannon bull and make it so the nova cannon is used as it was intended. To kill big ships. Even in the fluff Admirals would not bother shooting a nova cannon at a light cruiser. Unless the shit really hit the fan.

Here is a reasonable suggestions to making the Nova cannon balanced and true to the fluff.

Deployment Cap: 1 Nova Cannon

Damage: 400- 500. IF SHIELDS ARE KNOCKED DOWN Whatever damage is left will be dealt to the Ship.

Critical Damage: Improve the critical damage chance of this weapon. In the fluff the damn thing ripped weapons off of ships when it connected.

Cooldown: 3-4 Minutes Nova Cannon will start on a 1 minutes cooldown when the match begins. Avoiding cheap shots early on giving the player time to hide/ Spread out ships etc etc.

Accuracy is fine the way it is i think.

Failure Chance: First Shot has 0% of failing. After that each consecutive shot increases to 20%/40%/60%/80% This alone will make Imperials think twice before shooting. When the Nova Cannon goes critical and blows up. The ship will lose its front armor and between 100-200 damage should be dealt to the ship. In the fluff a Nova Cannon failure was no laughing matter.

Minimal Range: Is fine the way it is.

(To me this suggestion for the Nova Cannon is a good way to end the madness that is the Nova Spam and it being Exactly what it is in the fluff)

Chaos

Not much to say with chaos. The lances could use a tiny small buff if you guys are gonna go with better imperial Shields and the improved nova cannon for the imperials but that is about it.

Space Marines Things to BE CAREFUL Of with balancing Space marines

Lets face it. Space Marine Fleet will be VERY Powerful. They have No weaknesses. They have the speed/ agility of Chaos, the Durability of the Imperial Navy and the Firepower and Range of the Eldar.

The only logical way of balancing the space marines and making them true to the fluff and not broken will be to make them VERY expensive. If you want to roll with the Battle Barge you will have to deal with the fact that you can only bring 2 strike cruisers and an escort or 2.

Sure Space marines are super awsome and have almost no weaknesses. But they will have to deal with the fact of being outnumbered 2 to 1 in almost every game. Just like in the fluff pretty much.

Abilities

1. Stasis/ Disrupt/ Plasma Bombs

The stasis bomb has no real connection to the fluff so it really shouldnt be there. It is in fact a really broken ability but there can be some things done to make it reasonable.

Option 1. If you field stasis or other Bombs you should lose the Lighting strike Ability for the ship that its equipped to.
These bombs are teleported into space. These bombs are big. they take up space on a ship... They dont magically refresh either.
Give them a ammo cap. 2 stasis bombs max. Force people to use these bombs smartly rather than cause a spam fest with them.

Option 2. Make stacking bombs in a stasis field Impossible. Since Stasis slows down time. Shouldnt it slow down the timers on plasma/ Disrupt bombs as well?

Option 3. Reduce the AOE or the duration of the Stasis bomb.

2. Taunt

Taunt should be nurfed. It is too easy to chain and stun lock enemies we all know this.

Option 1. You shouldnt be able to Taunt the same ship more than once. atleast for 30 seconds.

Option 2. Reduce Taunts Range to 8K

Option 3. Give Taunt a Deployment Cap. 2 max


3. Micro Warp Jump.

Great and POWERFUL Ability but there should be a small chance (10%) to trigger lost in the warp and lose the ship for the battle.

Outlook on the game

I have high hopes for this game but at the moment it is grim. Im gonna say this. Single Player and Campaign will be AMAZING. However I can not say the same for the PVP. There is too much imbalance going on and people are losing their testicles about it. I am guilty of it myself until i decided to take a step back and collect my thoughts on the game. People forget that Warhammer 40 k is very fluff drivin. You have to try to balance the game as best as you can and find a good balance between Fluff and Game Balance. People have to stop acting like cunts to that tends to help. Stop being utter Chaos/ Space Marine/ Eldar/ Imperial/ Necron etc etc tards and try to work with what the books gave us.
Last edited by MYNAME? on 22 March 2016, 10:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Imperator5
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Re: Space Marines concerns, Balance suggestions and Outlook on Game

Postby Imperator5 » 22 March 2016, 10:02

There are some horrible ideas right here:

-Nova blowup chance: This is not in the lore and should be removed, not increased.
-Inaccuracy: Already makes taking 1 Nova useless. Make it more accurate, not less.
-Just make it require LOS.
-Buff damage and cooldown.

Micro warp jump: Lost in the warp is hyper annoying already, you want more of this? This would anger all casual PVE AND hardcore PVP players BOTH.

Torpedoes: Eldar don't have guided ones in CTT. Nor do Orks.
I think giving torps a minimal homing and speed buff would go a long way.

Taunt and Stasis bomb are currently all necessary for the meta. There are mission types that you can't win without them. Without them, Assassination, convoy attack and Data recovery should be taken out of the game too.
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

Please help me change skirmish to be customisable. Its very important for PVE players.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=515 Mod idea.

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Re: Space Marines concerns, Balance suggestions and Outlook on Game

Postby MYNAME? » 22 March 2016, 10:15

Imperator5 wrote:There are some horrible ideas right here:

-Nova blowup chance: This is not in the lore and should be removed, not increased.
-Inaccuracy: Already makes taking 1 Nova useless. Make it more accurate, not less.
-Just make it require LOS.
-Buff damage and cooldown.

Micro warp jump: Lost in the warp is hyper annoying already, you want more of this? This would anger all casual PVE AND hardcore PVP players BOTH.

Torpedoes: Eldar don't have guided ones in CTT. Nor do Orks.
I think giving torps a minimal homing and speed buff would go a long way.

Taunt and Stasis bomb are currently all necessary for the meta. There are mission types that you can't win without them. Without them, Assassination, convoy attack and Data recovery should be taken out of the game too.


Nova Cannons can Blow up in the Fluff....

The nova Cannon is an artillery Weapon and is a fire and forget weapon. thus you dont need line of site.

Make the accuracy better or keep it as is.

Taunt Stasis Bombs ARE NECESSARY FOR THE META and that is fine. but are broken and rediculous at this state. If left unchecked it will kill the game.

Did you even read my entire text?

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Re: Space Marines concerns, Balance suggestions and Outlook on Game

Postby Imperator5 » 22 March 2016, 10:23

MYNAME? wrote:
Imperator5 wrote:There are some horrible ideas right here:

-Nova blowup chance: This is not in the lore and should be removed, not increased.
-Inaccuracy: Already makes taking 1 Nova useless. Make it more accurate, not less.
-Just make it require LOS.
-Buff damage and cooldown.

Micro warp jump: Lost in the warp is hyper annoying already, you want more of this? This would anger all casual PVE AND hardcore PVP players BOTH.

Torpedoes: Eldar don't have guided ones in CTT. Nor do Orks.
I think giving torps a minimal homing and speed buff would go a long way.

Taunt and Stasis bomb are currently all necessary for the meta. There are mission types that you can't win without them. Without them, Assassination, convoy attack and Data recovery should be taken out of the game too.


Nova Cannons can Blow up in the Fluff....

The nova Cannon is an artillery Weapon and is a fire and forget weapon. thus you dont need line of site.

Make the accuracy better or keep it as is.

Taunt Stasis Bombs ARE NECESSARY FOR THE META and that is fine. but are broken and rediculous at this state. If left unchecked it will kill the game.

Did you even read my entire text?


They can blow up and damage the ship if the enemy destroys the weapon. Its not a "destroyed from firing itself thing." Same goes for torpedoes. Even macrocannon munitions can go off.

I never heard of a nova cannon blowing up from firing itself and I read 95% of all warhammer 40k material ever published.
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

Please help me change skirmish to be customisable. Its very important for PVE players.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=515 Mod idea.

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Facejack
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Re: Space Marines concerns,FLUFF, Balance suggestions, Outlook on Game

Postby Facejack » 22 March 2016, 10:31

The fix for taunt is simple: remove the leash part of the ability so that the affected ship still has heading control, but keep the "you must shoot me" part of the ability (and perhaps lengthen the duration to offset the nerf).

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Re: Space Marines concerns,FLUFF, Balance suggestions, Outlook on Game

Postby Psykmoe » 22 March 2016, 10:37

MYNAME? wrote:moving away from the Fluff.


In my Oppinion the Fluff would be the best way of getting most of the solutions to our problems we are having right now.

Starting with the Imperium.

Torpedos

Torpedos are not Armor Piercing in the fluff
Imperial Shields

In the Fluff

Nova Cannon

STAY TRUE TO THE FLUFF.

offensive to the fluff

In the fluff

In the fluff



No game designer worth their wage is going to seriously balance a game primarily around flavor texts written to hype nerds about a rulebook or around expanded universe novels. That way lies insanity.

It's tricky enough to balance an RTS while trying to keep individual ships close to their role in the tabletop RULES, and at least the tabletop game had rules, and presumably a design process that attempted some balance.

Adherence to the fluff is in visual design of ships and favors, in sound design, in weapon descriptions, in the writing of the campaign characters ... it's important to give the game a general atmosphere of WH40K, but since the devs are making an RTS and not a turn-based table top conversion (Cyanide's blood bowl) greater liberties must be taken to ensure the game is well-balanced and fun.

I should hope the game designers have an actual design document and the ambition to deliver a balanced multiplayer experience and not just the fanatical belief that THE FLUFF WILL FIX IT ALL.

Always remember, if you go by fluff, individual Space Marines in both Dawn of War and the actual WH40k tabletop games are too flimsy and unimpressive. The fluff paints them as demi-gods, not just slightly tougher fodder you click on '+reinforce' to buy new ones by the dozen.

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Re: Space Marines concerns,FLUFF, Balance suggestions, Outlook on Game

Postby BrianDavion » 22 March 2016, 10:40

alrighty I don't even know where to begin here so I'll address your points in order..


1: yes torpedos are NOT armor piercing, however right now torpedos are very weak and very unreliable. they're giving torpedos a mild buff to make them more desireable, the hope is that by making Torpedos BETTER people will be more inclined to use them. Eldar torpedos are more accurate yes, but they may not be homing in this game. Orks do not have guided torpedos. (they do have boarding torpedos but those aren't guided)

2: Imperial shields are stronger then Ork shields yes, Eldar shields are a entirely differant mechanic and thus I'd hesitate to say one is stronger then the other, but IN shields are no stronger then chaos shields, they're the same tech base after all. in fact chaos shields are proably better then Imperial sheilds just based on their ships being on average older.

3: Nova Cannons aren't a one shot wonder, I find myself wondering what books you read. nova cannons do not blow up, they just carry limited ammo. which is already represented in game by the chance for it to be disabled.

4: re space marines, I hate to say this but what's your source material for this? sounds like someone's been reading "Bolter Porn" (as somewhat derogatory term for the 40k novels that basicly pump space marines up as demi gods capable of destroying entire imperial guard regiments with a combat knife) because space marine ships have plenty of weaknesses, first off their back bone will be the strike cruiser. which is basicly a dauntless light cruiser with a hanger bay, better armor (it should be about 75/75/75) and a short range heavy hitting canon replacing the prow lance. sounds nice and all but with the number of weapons that ignore armor space marine ships are gonna be pretty fragile. they'll be good don't get me wrong but I know EXACTLY how I'd counter em.


5: re micro warp, no thanks,

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Re: Space Marines concerns,FLUFF, Balance suggestions, Outlook on Game

Postby Imperator5 » 22 March 2016, 10:48

Its not the limited ammo... its the reload time of the Nova cannon being 15-30 minutes in lore that limits it, rather than ammo count. Ammo count only ever mattered for the semi official "special nova ammunition" rules.

Also, yeah in lore a space marine can destroy a hundred humans with ease. No its not "bolter porn", its official space marine lore . Yeah they sucked in DoW games and that is the fault of the tabletop which they also suck at.
But their ships are supposed to be much durable, but much shorter range here. So it should work out in BFG Armada.

And yes, I made my mod where a space marine squad can chew through 10 IG squads for Dawn of War 2. But Sega broke it and I can't fix it yet....
Last edited by Imperator5 on 22 March 2016, 10:49, edited 1 time in total.
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

Please help me change skirmish to be customisable. Its very important for PVE players.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=515 Mod idea.

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Re: Space Marines concerns,FLUFF, Balance suggestions, Outlook on Game

Postby MYNAME? » 22 March 2016, 10:49

Psykmoe wrote:
MYNAME? wrote:moving away from the Fluff.


In my Oppinion the Fluff would be the best way of getting most of the solutions to our problems we are having right now.

Starting with the Imperium.

Torpedos

Torpedos are not Armor Piercing in the fluff
Imperial Shields

In the Fluff

Nova Cannon

STAY TRUE TO THE FLUFF.

offensive to the fluff

In the fluff

In the fluff



No game designer worth their wage is going to seriously balance a game primarily around flavor texts written to hype nerds about a rulebook or around expanded universe novels. That way lies insanity.

It's tricky enough to balance an RTS while trying to keep individual ships close to their role in the tabletop RULES, and at least the tabletop game had rules, and presumably a design process that attempted some balance.

Adherence to the fluff is in visual design of ships and favors, in sound design, in weapon descriptions, in the writing of the campaign characters ... it's important to give the game a general atmosphere of WH40K, but since the devs are making an RTS and not a turn-based table top conversion (Cyanide's blood bowl) greater liberties must be taken to ensure the game is well-balanced and fun.

I should hope the game designers have an actual design document and the ambition to deliver a balanced multiplayer experience and not just the fanatical belief that THE FLUFF WILL FIX IT ALL.

Always remember, if you go by fluff, individual Space Marines in both Dawn of War and the actual WH40k tabletop games are too flimsy and unimpressive. The fluff paints them as demi-gods, not just slightly tougher fodder you click on '+reinforce' to buy new ones by the dozen.


You have a Point. And i agree with you it is difficult to balance EVERY SINGLE THING about the fluff. It would be Insane. but certain things you do kinda want to get right. And i do believe in the 1 or 2 Nova Cannon idea to be a good idea.

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Re: Space Marines concerns,FLUFF, Balance suggestions, Outlook on Game

Postby Imperator5 » 22 March 2016, 10:50

MYNAME? wrote:
Psykmoe wrote:
MYNAME? wrote:moving away from the Fluff.


In my Oppinion the Fluff would be the best way of getting most of the solutions to our problems we are having right now.

Starting with the Imperium.

Torpedos

Torpedos are not Armor Piercing in the fluff
Imperial Shields

In the Fluff

Nova Cannon

STAY TRUE TO THE FLUFF.

offensive to the fluff

In the fluff

In the fluff



No game designer worth their wage is going to seriously balance a game primarily around flavor texts written to hype nerds about a rulebook or around expanded universe novels. That way lies insanity.

It's tricky enough to balance an RTS while trying to keep individual ships close to their role in the tabletop RULES, and at least the tabletop game had rules, and presumably a design process that attempted some balance.

Adherence to the fluff is in visual design of ships and favors, in sound design, in weapon descriptions, in the writing of the campaign characters ... it's important to give the game a general atmosphere of WH40K, but since the devs are making an RTS and not a turn-based table top conversion (Cyanide's blood bowl) greater liberties must be taken to ensure the game is well-balanced and fun.

I should hope the game designers have an actual design document and the ambition to deliver a balanced multiplayer experience and not just the fanatical belief that THE FLUFF WILL FIX IT ALL.

Always remember, if you go by fluff, individual Space Marines in both Dawn of War and the actual WH40k tabletop games are too flimsy and unimpressive. The fluff paints them as demi-gods, not just slightly tougher fodder you click on '+reinforce' to buy new ones by the dozen.


You have a Point. And i agree with you it is difficult to balance EVERY SINGLE THING about the fluff. It would be Insane. but certain things you do kinda want to get right. And i do believe in the 1 or 2 Nova Cannon idea to be a good idea.


Yeah but lore wise, its also supposed to be useful and powerful. Either accurate with no AOE or not that accurate but doing very huge splash damage depending on what shell you use.
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

Please help me change skirmish to be customisable. Its very important for PVE players.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=515 Mod idea.


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