Tau need a lot of Changes

Discuss the Tau fleet. For the Greater Good!
Aquilar
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Re: Tau need a lot of Changes

Postby Aquilar » 16 October 2016, 20:34

MadDemiurg wrote:Actually, I think holofields do help vs novas on TT. And yes, it's an Ahriman avatar :D.



yeah the eldar rolled once to ignore a nova cannon blast or similar the only thing it couldn't ignore was the Armageddon gun and warp cannon

A suggested changed for the eldar is to just give them better armour, wraithbone isn't that fragile since it's used in the construction of their heaviest armour and vehicles on ground.

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Ahzek Ahriman
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Re: Tau need a lot of Changes

Postby Ahzek Ahriman » 17 October 2016, 00:19

Aquilar wrote:
MadDemiurg wrote:Actually, I think holofields do help vs novas on TT. And yes, it's an Ahriman avatar :D.



yeah the eldar rolled once to ignore a nova cannon blast or similar the only thing it couldn't ignore was the Armageddon gun and warp cannon

A suggested changed for the eldar is to just give them better armour, wraithbone isn't that fragile since it's used in the construction of their heaviest armour and vehicles on ground.



Ohhh yeah, another brilliant idea of yours. Because Eldar are supposed to be not only the fastest but also the most difficult to damage faction.

Why don't we remove the crit vulnerability while we're at it? And make lightning strikes impossible to hit them while holofields are active? And give them more bombers per squadron to add to the mix. You can even remove pulsars, they won't need them anyway.

Jeez man, I really don't like going around mocking people at forums right from the get-go but with my black humor I find it impossible in your case.
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Aquilar
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Re: Tau need a lot of Changes

Postby Aquilar » 17 October 2016, 07:07

Well lets port one of the TTs better mechanics, where everyone basically had 50 (4+) armour as their weakest save, the next up is 66(5+) then it's 83(6+)

See the problem now? I'm using TT as a reference, unfortunately eldar were just as broken there too, where you literally could not touch them. The community ended up fixing them by replacing bad mechanics (move move shoot instead of move shoot move) and giving them shields, less gimmicky holofield, better armour( 5+ instead of 4+) and turrets(they originally had no turrets), now under those specific rules, eldar a hell of a lot more engaging to run for both players

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Imperator5
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Re: Tau need a lot of Changes

Postby Imperator5 » 17 October 2016, 10:47

Eldar holofields are one of GW's many, many, many mistakes.

But since it is such a universal Eldar thing Tindalos can not remove it.
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

Please help me change skirmish to be customisable. Its very important for PVE players.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=515 Mod idea.

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Ahzek Ahriman
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Re: Tau need a lot of Changes

Postby Ahzek Ahriman » 17 October 2016, 18:23

Aquilar wrote:Well lets port one of the TTs better mechanics, where everyone basically had 50 (4+) armour as their weakest save, the next up is 66(5+) then it's 83(6+)

See the problem now? I'm using TT as a reference, unfortunately eldar were just as broken there too, where you literally could not touch them. The community ended up fixing them by replacing bad mechanics (move move shoot instead of move shoot move) and giving them shields, less gimmicky holofield, better armour( 5+ instead of 4+) and turrets(they originally had no turrets), now under those specific rules, eldar a hell of a lot more engaging to run for both players


Yes but here in the game Eldar are already (as you said) brokenly OP. Only pulsar nerf brought them back to somewhat (very somewhat) balanced state, but now they have more launch bays and an Eldar carrier fleet is a nightmare to face when in hands of experienced player.

You simply can't give them 50 armour and expect any semblance of balance unless the whole faction gets reworked to better suit RTS. More broadside weaponry, pulsars working like normal lances, holofield stupidity, sails mechanic and a lot more.

And that is something that is not going to happen, not with GW's stupid (standard) policy.

Unless of course you nullify their offensive potential to near-nothingness to accomodate their near-invincibility that is going to happen with 50 armour.
That would mean nerfing bombers (pulsars and starcannons are pitifully weak already). And that would utterly break the faction.

Personally, I would rework the faction, but shit happens.
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MadDemiurg
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Re: Tau need a lot of Changes

Postby MadDemiurg » 17 October 2016, 20:29

Actually Eldar are probably the worst faction right now if the opponent knows what he's doing (SM are pretty bad too, but endgame I feel like they have an easier time in many MUs). They are not underpowered to the level where you can't win, but it's pretty challenging in most MUs. You still can beat newbs in a really unpleasant (for them) way, but that's about it. So imo some buffs for them would be welcome. I don't think 50 armour is the right one though (and it will kinda take away from faction uniqueness).

But giving them aoe damage mitigation is very reasonable. There are a few other things I would do for them, but it's not the topic.

As for Tau my current list would be:

Experimantal railgun:
-Increase firing delay from 2s to 3s (ship can still track the target during delay like it does currently)
-Show a visible indicator where it's going to fire
-Make it reduce armour by 25 instead of to 25 (preferably make armour work like % mitigation rather than negation chance cause otherwise it can become very frustrating depending on rng. It already is with 25% negation and 180 sec cd)
-Give Eldar aoe damage mitigation depending on holofield charge (max 50%). This would include experimental railguns and novas.

Water caste call in:
Limit to 2 charges. Starts on 1/2 instead of full cd (to be more useful in timed missions). Change it to summon wardens.

Ships:
-Wardens +100 hp
-No escort option for gravihook ships (emissary and custodian) for reduced pt cost.
-Kroot sphere maneouvres do not reveal it by default (emissions dissipators disbled)
-Kroot sphere -50% renown upgrade cost
-Demiurg stronghold -25% renown upgrade cost

Upgrades
-Stealth alloy - limit to first 300 sec or rework (e.g. turns ship to a bilp after 10 sec outside of scanner range)
-New ship upgrade: Ethereal. Makes ship immune to insubordination. Replaces enhanced battle bridge. Each point spent in -insubordination% crew member now reduces insubordination chances around the ship in 7500 range by x% per level (kinda like reverse Slaanesh). Demiurg ships can also take it, but do not get the aura as they can't level up crew. Insubordination immunity however cancels automatic insubordination at 30% hull.

Tentative:
-Reduce adaptive deflector upgrade to 50 armour
-Vanguard void battlesuit does assault actions (temp crits) instead of boarding actions
I feel these two are the stronger upgrades Tau have left, however I don't really feel the need for these changes as both of these are quite easily counterable. But if Tau are still deemed "OP" for whatever reason (personally I think they're not) this is a reasonable way to tone them down.
Last edited by MadDemiurg on 17 October 2016, 21:45, edited 7 times in total.

Aquilar
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Re: Tau need a lot of Changes

Postby Aquilar » 17 October 2016, 20:31

Ahzek Ahriman wrote:Yes but here in the game Eldar are already (as you said) brokenly OP. Only pulsar nerf brought them back to somewhat (very somewhat) balanced state, but now they have more launch bays and an Eldar carrier fleet is a nightmare to face when in hands of experienced player.

You simply can't give them 50 armour and expect any semblance of balance unless the whole faction gets reworked to better suit RTS. More broadside weaponry, pulsars working like normal lances, holofield stupidity, sails mechanic and a lot more.

And that is something that is not going to happen, not with GW's stupid (standard) policy.

Unless of course you nullify their offensive potential to near-nothingness to accomodate their near-invincibility that is going to happen with 50 armour.
That would mean nerfing bombers (pulsars and starcannons are pitifully weak already). And that would utterly break the faction.

Personally, I would rework the faction, but shit happens.


Generally everything will need reworking, but Eldar need it sorely.

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Ahzek Ahriman
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Re: Tau need a lot of Changes

Postby Ahzek Ahriman » 17 October 2016, 22:35

Aquilar wrote:
Ahzek Ahriman wrote:Yes but here in the game Eldar are already (as you said) brokenly OP. Only pulsar nerf brought them back to somewhat (very somewhat) balanced state, but now they have more launch bays and an Eldar carrier fleet is a nightmare to face when in hands of experienced player.

You simply can't give them 50 armour and expect any semblance of balance unless the whole faction gets reworked to better suit RTS. More broadside weaponry, pulsars working like normal lances, holofield stupidity, sails mechanic and a lot more.

And that is something that is not going to happen, not with GW's stupid (standard) policy.

Unless of course you nullify their offensive potential to near-nothingness to accomodate their near-invincibility that is going to happen with 50 armour.
That would mean nerfing bombers (pulsars and starcannons are pitifully weak already). And that would utterly break the faction.

Personally, I would rework the faction, but shit happens.


Generally everything will need reworking, but Eldar need it sorely.


And this is where we reach the common conclusion. There needs to be a lot of reworking to be done (Eldar especially) but GW just won't allow that.

That is something for mods to change but right now modding is extremely slow, only Piston has the knowledge and tools necessary to do it and he has little time for that. And there are no official modding tools so any major changes are in the sphere of dreams for now.
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