Upon further reflection

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Bludfist
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Re: Upon further reflection

Postby Bludfist » 16 May 2016, 00:17

Darkfine wrote:What I am hearing is there are tools to deal with this. I just have to put up with hours of frustration to get it? Why? What the hell kind of game design is that.

A flawed one, straight up. The admiral rank system/ship level/renown requirements hae been panned by a majority of the community but it seems the devs dont want to budge on the issue.

Their intention it seems was to "create a narative" for the player; a story if you will, to make you care about your fleet furthermore on the subject of limited ship slots they want you to create generalist fleets to let you deal with all threats.

Take the renown for example, come admiral level 8, renown holds no meaning once you have maxed out ships, that "narrative" they want you to have it completely disappears

Caring about your ships? Once you reach that max admiral rank its better to let your ships get destroyed and pay the renown repair cost afterwards rather than warping out your ships and risking it be lost in the warp.

And that last part about a generalist fleets? That goes compleatly agaist a faction like IN whom are full of specialist ships, and furthermore with a game full of factions with multiple diffrent playstyles, it is impossible to create a grenalist fleet that works vs all of them
Chaos walking into Aldorf be like
Spoiler : :
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Rolepgeek
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Re: Upon further reflection

Postby Rolepgeek » 16 May 2016, 00:24

There are multiple tactics to use to deal with it as well. It really shouldn't take that long to get to higher values, though. Especially since not every battle you fight is going to be against kiting fleets. They outrange you, yeah, so don't just tell all your ships to go directly towards them.

Spread out, box them in if they're Chaos lance-kiting fleets, don't waste your combustion gauge, use faster ships to be sure, use torpedoes to get damage and threaten their paths of escape. Their whole goal is to keep you from doing this long enough to cripple your vessels so they can close in for a kill. Your whole goal is to get close before this happens, and deal enough damage to them that even if they do get away, they can't do as much damage while you trap them again. It takes time to get good at, for the cat more so than the mouse, but like I said. Slow armies, or slow fleets, require a lot more planning and strategy. Fast fleets require a lot more tactics and precision. And remember, odds are they're limited to staying within 12k. You don't need many skills to catch up quick, or force them to interact with you. In fact, MWJ doesn't work if a ship is within 3k of their desired position; this is the other purpose to escorts in such a fleet.

For carrier fleets, you can be certain they can't be farther than 12k, most of the time, though they might dip in and out. Make use of gas clouds, asteroid fields, Running Silent, and other orders to reduce damage, as well as heavy escorts (6 turrets, maybe even 9, for ~40 points is a very good deal). Cobras and Widowmakers are a lot less useful due to the automatic fighter screens they'll be using, plus the attacks their escort fighters can throw on the way. If you can get a carrier of your own, it'll make things easier, but it's by no means a requirement. Torpedoes are, unfortunately, mostly useless against carrier fleets, as they care a lot less about precise positioning. However, they need to have you identified in order to throw their stuff at you. Keep an eye out for their augur probes, try to be unpredictable with your movements, and close the gap silently. If they have escorts they use for scouting, break them. That, at least, should be easy. Carrier fleets may or may not try to stick together to maximize fighter coverage (and if you already have healthy fighters around your carrier, a wave of assault boats on the way to their carrier should help mitigate their wave damage further), but squadrons of escorts, again, particularly with the Defensive Turrets upgrade, can hem them in pretty readily, or serve as very effective shields for your larger vessels. That leaves catching up to them, of course, which is less about speed and more about stealth, though speed and flanking is still important. It's simply more difficult to do, since spreading out makes you more vulnerable to their ordnance waves. Best bet will be misdirection and deception. Of course, raw speed can work as well when necessary; keep in mind that if you have Running Silent on while going All Full Ahead, if you drop out of boosting even just as Running Silent is about to end, you can go back to being unidentified.

As for Eldar...well, the bright side is that Eldar carriers are uncommon, and don't deal too incredibly much damage, and that Eldars are even more fragile to escorts. The downside is that they will be incredibly, ridiculously difficult to actually catch if played right. Luckily, their fighter screens will be a lot less significant, and a good wave of assault boats from your carrier can hurt 'em plenty. Other than that, same strategies apply, though forcing them into Asteroid Fields (while forcing the Eldar to go any particular route is quite difficult, to be fair) will be even more effective.

The other bright side, the incredibly, blindingly bright one is that pulsars have to get close to you. There's...not much else to say there. :/ Jump, Taunt, and Ram?

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Ashardalon
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Re: Upon further reflection

Postby Ashardalon » 16 May 2016, 01:11

I can't just sit on an objective cause there aren't any, and even if there were they out range me.

how are they seeing you? 5k detection range even imps can shoot at that 7.5k when upgraded still shootabel if a little more difficult but thats wat upgrades are for, do they have augur probes just constantly flying out or how are they keeping consistent damage on you? or are you infact chasing after them constantly burning and thus revealing yourself? also if you are capable of leading your shots or just carpet-bombing: torps can not be underestimated infinite range high damage and 11% crit (don't bother with meltas) and usually turrets usually only take down half thats still 90 damage + crits every 20ish seconds also on the advice of clumping together turretrange is only 1250 so keep your formation manually the select in group and move tends to keep them at 2.5k aprox witch is not close enough for overlapping turrets but your opponent will most likely not be keeping his ships at 1250 either so again torps are awesome

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Re: Upon further reflection

Postby shadowsfm » 16 May 2016, 05:55

when you have been spotted, you can be targeted at maximum weapon range. people often forget that running silent requires the enemy to move in close again to reveal your ships

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Re: Upon further reflection

Postby Papa Bear » 16 May 2016, 07:37

Darkfine wrote:I am not trying to beat them at their own game. I am trying to interact with them at all. I can't not interact with them as they have longer range than I do. I can't just sit on an objective cause there aren't any, and even if there were they out range me.

What I am hearing is there are tools to deal with this. I just have to put up with hours of frustration to get it? Why? What the hell kind of game design is that.

Mate, what people are trying to tell you is that you're not entirely correct. There are numerous ways to a) interact with the kiting fleet and b) force them to interact with you. So, sorry for pointing out, it's not the mechanics that are broken, you're not using the mechanics put in the game.
Some game modes ARE broken though (assasination Vs the Eldar for example), but you're not getting those at 300 points.
Of course, there is no sure way to beat an opponent, as he is also human and also using all tools at his disposal to beat you. But I have to say, Chaos at 300 points is basically helpless. If you are getting beaten playing imps at that stage, it's definitely a skill/fleet build issue. An interesting thread appeared recently with advice for new players, check it out. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3341

A kiting fleet typically has 2-3 minutes of flying away before they reach a side of the board or corner. That's your chance to engage, even if you dont use and skills (bombs, torps, anything). Target the engines. Anyway, a lot of people have figured this thing out and are eager to help. So, I'm sure, if you give the fleet composition you're having troube against or what you're flying right now and dont find success, you'll get plenty of tricks from people here about how to make it work ;)
That's the pleasure of this game - it's pretty damn deep. I've played 70+ hours and still discovering new tactics and tricks every day. Utterly enjoyable.
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CALiGeR190
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Re: Upon further reflection

Postby CALiGeR190 » 16 May 2016, 07:53

Chaos are pretty easy to counter.
Just make use of the engine upgrades and induction coils and you'll catch them with no problems with your light cruisers, using carriers for defence against enemy Ordance and extra firepower at extreme range.
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GreySeer
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Re: Upon further reflection

Postby GreySeer » 16 May 2016, 17:00

Bludfist wrote:
Im goign to assume your IN because their the ones always complaing on the fourms about everything being unfair :lol:



They are complaining because they are right.
Praise the Machine God
Bless His construct-creations
And death to those who are not part of His grand design

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Bosie
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Re: Upon further reflection

Postby Bosie » 16 May 2016, 17:25

GreySeer wrote:They are complaining because they are right.


What is unfair about the Imperial fleet?
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Bludfist
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Re: Upon further reflection

Postby Bludfist » 16 May 2016, 17:48

GreySeer wrote:
Bludfist wrote:
Im goign to assume your IN because their the ones always complaing on the fourms about everything being unfair :lol:



They are complaining because they are right.

Who is they?

Is it by your assessment? IN is fine
Chaos walking into Aldorf be like
Spoiler : :
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Imaginary friend
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Re: Upon further reflection

Postby Imaginary friend » 16 May 2016, 18:22

Bludfist wrote:Im goign to assume your IN because their the ones always complaing on the fourms about everything being unfair :lol:


Lol. Feeling a tad superrior, eh. What a way to invalidate anythingh else you said.
As an fervent imp player i can say that imp-chaos balance is the saving grace of this game. it keeps rest of it afloat.


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