How to play as chaos?

Share your heretic strategies. Death to the false Emperor!
duck_bird
Posts: 48
Joined: 15 April 2016, 17:46
Location: Maryland
Contact:

Re: How to play as chaos?

Postby duck_bird » 01 May 2016, 19:23

Yeah chaos escorts aren't in a great place.

On tabletop they weren't great either, but they had a few things going for them that aren't represented in Armada.

Iconoclasts were DIRT cheap.

Idolators had 45cm (9k in armada) weapons batteries and didn't suffer an accuracy penalty for shooting over 30cms.

Infidels were pretty much crap.
Non Compos Mentis

https://www.twitch.tv/duck_bird

I stream sometimes idk

User avatar
Deuzerre
Posts: 218
Joined: 01 April 2016, 13:39
Contact:

Re: How to play as chaos?

Postby Deuzerre » 01 May 2016, 19:30

LEt's just compare all escorts.
* indicates relative damage over a set period of time affected by accuracy
² indicates relative damage over a set period of time not affected by accuracy

100HP escorts:
Cobra destroyer (37 pts):
100 shield / 225 speed / 25° rotation / 5000 detection / 60 troop value / 3 turrets / 25/25/25 armour / 2 torps, 1 macro turret (120*)
Widowmaker (39 pts):
100 shield / 225 speed / 25° rotation / 10000 detection / 60 troop value / 3 turrets / 25/25/25 armour / 2 torps
Iconoclast Destroyer (37 pts):
100 shield / 262 speed / 25° rotation / 5000 detection / 60 troop value / 3 turrets / 25/25/25 armour / 6 missile turrets (180*)
Brute Ram Ship (31 pts):
100 shield / 188 speed / 20° rotation / 5000 detection / 70 troop value / 3 turrets / 75/25/25 armour / Grot gunz (120*)

200HP escorts:
Firestorm frigate (41 pts):
100 shield / 188 speed / 20° rotation / 5000 detection / 60 troop value / 6 turrets / 50/50/50 armour / macro turret (120*), prow lance (60²)
Sword Frigate (42 pts):
100 shield / 188 speed / 20° rotation / 5000 detection / 60 troop value / 6 turrets / 50/50/50 armour / 2 macro turrets (240*)
Idolator Raider (43 pts):
100 shield / 225 speed / 20° rotation / 5000 detection / 60 troop value / 6 turrets / 50/50/50 armour / 4 missile turrets (120*), prow lance (60²)
Infidel Raider (46 pts):
100 shield / 225 speed / 20° rotation / 5000 detection / 60 troop value / 6 turrets / 50/50/50 armour / 2 light torps, 4 missile turrets (120*)
Ravager Attack Ship (35 pts):
100 shield / 150 speed / 15° rotation / 5000 detection / 70 troop value / 3 turrets / 75/25/25 armour / 2 light torps, Grot gunz (120*)
Savage Gunship (32 pts):
100 shield / 150 speed / 15° rotation / 5000 detection / 70 troop value / 3 turrets / 75/25/25 armour / Heavy Kanonz (240*)
Onslaught Attack Ship (31 pts):
100 shield / 150 speed / 15° rotation / 5000 detection / 70 troop value / 3 turrets / 75/25/25 armour / 2 Grot gunz (240*)

Not including eldar pulsars, they're on a league of their own.

As we can see:
On the same class, Chaos escorts are (Eldar excluded):
- noticeably faster than all
- On the high average in agility (Equal to Imperials, superior to Orks)
- On the average in detection (exception being the widowmaker)
- On the low average in crew (Inferior to Orks)
- On the high average in turret defence (superior to Orks)
- On the low average in front armour (inferior to Orks)
- On the high average in side/rear armour (superior to Orks)
- Their light escort is the best in self-managed firepower, inferior to imperials if their torpedoes hit (need micro)

Firepower.
Now if you compare the Idolator to the Firestorm frigate, you see firepower is equal. However, the Idolator is faster, for 2 points more. Chaos ship is arguably superior. It also has, in its frontal arc, one of the best firepowers (especially if you include the fact the lasers always hit) with 180 (inferior to ships with 2 turrets)
The iconoclast has decent damage output, though I don't see the point of such weak HP ships
The infidel is basically a tougher Cobra (+100HP, +3 turrets, armour) at the cost of 5° of rotation and +6 points (a tad overpriced? Dunno, it survives being rammed)

The only issue with Chaos is that they lack a dedicated macro ship with 2 turrets that could stack macro bonuses, but their strength is that they can move all around to focus their firepower. They don't have any real weakness and can fill gaps where needed or get the hell out to keep shooting.

Now, if you want to doubt the interest of escorts overall, I could sort of agree. But Chaos escorts really aren't bad.
"Common sense isn't as common as the name would imply"

Lucifronsun
Posts: 406
Joined: 13 March 2016, 01:41
Contact:

Re: How to play as chaos?

Postby Lucifronsun » 01 May 2016, 20:08

Deuzerre wrote:On the same class, Chaos escorts are (Eldar excluded):
- noticeably faster than all
- On the high average in agility (Equal to Imperials, superior to Orks)
- On the average in detection (exception being the widowmaker)
- On the low average in crew (Inferior to Orks)
- On the high average in turret defence (superior to Orks)
- On the low average in front armour (inferior to Orks)
- On the high average in side/rear armour (superior to Orks)
- Their light escort is the best in self-managed firepower, inferior to imperials if their torpedoes hit (need micro)


The thing that puts off chaos escorts currently is the missile pods, which is the core reason of why they suck, and is the reason why I say they suck.

Missile pods work off relatively unknown factors (Do they always hit, do they function like starcannons where they mostly always hit?) which leaves us guessing based of personal experience.

Firepower.


Is the big issue here.

Now if you compare the Idolator to the Firestorm frigate, you see firepower is equal. However, the Idolator is faster, for 2 points more. Chaos ship is arguably superior.


The firepower on the lance is equal, with the firestorms lance firing more frequently, which I'd say gives the weapon the edge when comparing. However, both ships have more weapons than just the lance, and while both are weak as indicated by the tooltip, the missile pods are functionally weaker than macro cannons.

It also has, in its frontal arc, one of the best firepowers (especially if you include the fact the lasers always hit)


Always hitting does not mean it's powerful, and no, best frontal firepower goes to the savage and the aconite, firestorm and idolator dont even come close. I'd say the hemlock and the hellebore are contending for power as well, but pulsars are cheating.

with 180 (inferior to ships with 2 turrets)


The lances have a 90* arc

However, the Idolator is faster, for 2 points more. Chaos ship is arguably superior.


Hold the phone buddy, this is where it all gets fucked up, and more interesting.

The iconoclast has decent damage output, though I don't see the point of such weak HP ships
The infidel is basically a tougher Cobra (+100HP, +3 turrets, armour) at the cost of 5° of rotation and +6 points (a tad overpriced? Dunno, it survives being rammed)


Now I'm going to concentrate all my findings here, so it's easy to see.

The missile pods are not outputting damage in a reliable manner, and are working in a way that we can only guess at. They most definitely do not function off normal macro accuracy, but whether or not they "always" hit like starcannons do is up for debate. They're also bugged with macro cannon upgrades, where whether or not they work keeps changing, with the only one you can visibly tell working is the range upgrade.

If they indeed function more like starcannons, then the normal macro upgrades are useless for them, for the same reason they're useless on eldar ships. That is, apart from starcannons doing poopy damage, which the missile pods also share, but that's besides the point. The accuracy upgrade is obviously not useful for an already high accuracy weapon with very little fall off in the range the weapon operates at. The armor pen upgrade not being useful because the point of the high accuracy weapon is to use it at a distance, getting close as an escort is asking for a stiff wind to blow up your ship.

I've noticed that the missile pods will do okayish against shields at least, but when they hit hull, they hit a brick wall and their damage just plops into visual effect territory, even when massed. You can go and look at it for yourself, it does. Try it against a 75 armor prow for even more disappointing numbers.

tl;dr Missile pods are bugged, operate in an unknown way, and are functionally weaker than all their counterparts. They don't have any good upgrades because of the way they work, if the upgrades are even working at all. This is singularly what's holding the chaos escorts back so hard when compared to others.

The only issue with Chaos is that they lack a dedicated macro ship with 2 turrets that could stack macro bonuses, but their strength is that they can move all around to focus their firepower. They don't have any real weakness and can fill gaps where needed or get the hell out to keep shooting.


That's not the only issue with chaos, the only issue with the escorts is the missile pods.

Now, if you want to doubt the interest of escorts overall, I could sort of agree. But Chaos escorts really aren't bad.


I don't particularly find escorts useful, but I'm not concerned with that here. It's the armament that's making the chaos ships bad, not the ships themselves.

GaiusVolusenus
Posts: 2
Joined: 03 May 2016, 14:27
Contact:

Re: How to play as chaos?

Postby GaiusVolusenus » 03 May 2016, 14:49

Lucifronsun wrote:
Then I have 3 hellbringers as kiting carriers, and 1 mk2 as a sneaky ship to field in assassination missions.

Play around with speed. I've found that the improved thruster upgrade is mandatory on all chaos ships!


The beam hellbringer is pretty trash, stick to the carrier one. Maneuver gauge upgrade is not "mandatory".



My buddy and I were having some fun in 2v2s w/ the beam hellbringers. The lance dps is anemic, but its constant, and kiting people is just so satisfying.

What upgrades do you think benefit the lancer/carrier CLs the most? Shield damage? Range?

Halstead
Posts: 212
Joined: 23 April 2016, 22:20
Contact:

Re: How to play as chaos?

Postby Halstead » 03 May 2016, 18:52

GaiusVolusenus wrote:
Lucifronsun wrote:
Then I have 3 hellbringers as kiting carriers, and 1 mk2 as a sneaky ship to field in assassination missions.

Play around with speed. I've found that the improved thruster upgrade is mandatory on all chaos ships!


The beam hellbringer is pretty trash, stick to the carrier one. Maneuver gauge upgrade is not "mandatory".



My buddy and I were having some fun in 2v2s w/ the beam hellbringers. The lance dps is anemic, but its constant, and kiting people is just so satisfying.

What upgrades do you think benefit the lancer/carrier CLs the most? Shield damage? Range?
Because lance always hit, you can't go wrong with range upgrade. Shield damage on the other hand....it depend on your lance's damage output. If it deal just 4 per hit....you would get only +1 extra damage point against shield per lance hit.

Lucifronsun
Posts: 406
Joined: 13 March 2016, 01:41
Contact:

Re: How to play as chaos?

Postby Lucifronsun » 04 May 2016, 00:30

GaiusVolusenus wrote:My buddy and I were having some fun in 2v2s w/ the beam hellbringers. The lance dps is anemic, but its constant, and kiting people is just so satisfying.

What upgrades do you think benefit the lancer/carrier CLs the most? Shield damage? Range?


For lances, range and belt armor are mandatory, for carriers, the cooldown reduction and belt armor are mandatory.

You could invest in the macro accuracy upgrade, but I'm iffy on that, everything else is up you, but the shield regen upgrade is a good choice.

User avatar
Bludfist
Posts: 997
Joined: 14 March 2016, 22:46
Contact:

Re: How to play as chaos?

Postby Bludfist » 04 May 2016, 02:24

Lucifronsun wrote:

Hey man, devs just stated that missile pods are carbon copy macros

Sio'are wrote:
ARE CHAOS MISSILE PODS MACRO-WEAPONS ?

Are chaos missile turrets significantly different from macro weapons? They accept all three upgrades (AP, range, accuracy), but it is difficult to observe if these actually have the same effect (except range, which seems to work).

Do they work on the same accuracy curve as regular weapon batteries, or a different one? Do they interact with shields and armor the same?


Indeed, Missile Pods are Macro-weapons in all regards. Despite the look of their projectiles, they do not differ from Chaos Maco-baterries and such, and take all upgrades, accuracies, and effects of Macro-weapons.

As a reminder, Macro-weapons regroupe a wide array of different weapons in the Warhammer 40k universe, including missiles in some cases.

Kor'o Elys'eir Sio'Are Kaith Kir'qath, End of transmission.
Chaos walking into Aldorf be like
Spoiler : :
Image

Lucifronsun
Posts: 406
Joined: 13 March 2016, 01:41
Contact:

Re: How to play as chaos?

Postby Lucifronsun » 04 May 2016, 03:44

Bludfist wrote:
Lucifronsun wrote:

Hey man, devs just stated that missile pods are carbon copy macros

Sio'are wrote:
ARE CHAOS MISSILE PODS MACRO-WEAPONS ?

Are chaos missile turrets significantly different from macro weapons? They accept all three upgrades (AP, range, accuracy), but it is difficult to observe if these actually have the same effect (except range, which seems to work).

Do they work on the same accuracy curve as regular weapon batteries, or a different one? Do they interact with shields and armor the same?


Indeed, Missile Pods are Macro-weapons in all regards. Despite the look of their projectiles, they do not differ from Chaos Maco-baterries and such, and take all upgrades, accuracies, and effects of Macro-weapons.

As a reminder, Macro-weapons regroupe a wide array of different weapons in the Warhammer 40k universe, including missiles in some cases.

Kor'o Elys'eir Sio'Are Kaith Kir'qath, End of transmission.


Oh wonderful, they finally fixed the upgrades for them, last time I took the macro range upgrade it didn't apply to them in game.

Though if what the dev said is true in game, missile pods are even worse than I thought if they're subject to macro accuracy as well, but it does explain why they don't do shit.

The projectile must be very deceiving then, as visually it tracks its target very well.

MYNAME?
Posts: 881
Joined: 19 March 2016, 18:39
Contact:

Re: How to play as chaos?

Postby MYNAME? » 04 May 2016, 23:56

TheGoldenChicken wrote:One mistake I made frequently when I was a noob playing chaos: Getting detected. Seriously, always ALWAYS seek to be a dot on the opponents screen. With the insane burst that a well placed macro barrage can put out, you do not want to be hit by them, if you are detected throughout the whole game, they will chip away at you almost as much as you do them, and eventually are going to force you into a brawl where you'll have too little health to prevail.

The whole point of 99% of all chaos fleets is to stay undetected and stay at range. Keep skirting about the enemy and fire your lances and launch your bombers. Sooner or later in longer games however, you're going to make a mistake, and at this inevitable point, it is imperative that you are better prepared for the inevitable brawl than your opponent. Chaos suck in brawls, but if an imperial player enters a brawl with your fresh ships, while he himself has a crippled fleet, you can win.

I find that many of my victories are actually won in brawls that I've won due to my multiple "alpha strikes".


Meeh being detected isnt a game loser for chaos. Can be a small problem when fighting mirror lance fleets but thats what you have tzeentcg for. Orks and imperials dont do good enough damage at 12 k.

MYNAME?
Posts: 881
Joined: 19 March 2016, 18:39
Contact:

Re: How to play as chaos?

Postby MYNAME? » 05 May 2016, 03:12

GaiusVolusenus wrote:
Lucifronsun wrote:
Then I have 3 hellbringers as kiting carriers, and 1 mk2 as a sneaky ship to field in assassination missions.

Play around with speed. I've found that the improved thruster upgrade is mandatory on all chaos ships!


The beam hellbringer is pretty trash, stick to the carrier one. Maneuver gauge upgrade is not "mandatory".



My buddy and I were having some fun in 2v2s w/ the beam hellbringers. The lance dps is anemic, but its constant, and kiting people is just so satisfying.

What upgrades do you think benefit the lancer/carrier CLs the most? Shield damage? Range?


You can never go wrong with stealth focused LCs. Hellbringers become pretty important when fighting eldar. I roll with 1 carnage and 3 or 4 hell bringers when fighting eldar. All MoK + teleportariums and stealth. Thats just my view of how to possibly give chaos LCs a good role.
When I fight eldar I bring my cheap toys around. Nobody gives a shit if you lose your LC. 25 renown and its fixed.


Return to “Chaos Warfleet”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests