[Just For Fun]: Imperium Battleship Scale vs Real

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Slywyn
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[Just For Fun]: Imperium Battleship Scale vs Real

Postby Slywyn » 08 April 2016, 20:34

Most of us are familiar with the old adage "Sci-Fi Writers have no sense of scale", and I got to thinking about this recently- are Warhammer writers as bad as the rest of them? So, just completely for fun, I decided to compare a Warhammer Battleship(Specifically the Emperor-class, as it was the only one I could find specific numbers for) vs a 'fictional' similar-capability Battleship that a 'modern' country might make. Now, those are in air quotes because we don't currently have any ships on Earth that fulfill the same role that an Imperium ship does(Namely aircraft capability as well as large-scale artillery) so I'll be combining a modern Aircraft Carrier and a modern(Or as modern as I can find) Battleship.

I'll be using US Navy ships for the comparison for a few reasons:
1) I live in the US, so it's easiest for me to find information on them.
2) I'm most familiar with the US Navy so it's easier to make comparisons.
3) The US Navy is the largest on Earth currently(To my knowledge), and is likely the best comparison to the Imperium ships.

So! Let's get to the numbers, shall we?

Creating Our Fictional 'Modern' Ship
Let's start with a Carrier, since the information is easiest to find, as they are still in active service. These numbers are based on the Gerald R. Ford-class USN Supercarrier coming into service sometime this year.

Length: 1106ft(337m)
Beam(Width): 256ft(78m)
Height: 250ft(76m)
Crew Complement: 4660(Planned)

Battleship is a little more difficult. The last active service USN Battleship was the Missouri(Iowa-Class), in the first Gulf War. However, larger Battleships were planned, though exact details are impossible as none were completed, and no construction was ever begun. We'll be going with the proposed Montana-class for the comparison, as they were larger than the Iowa and near-exact details are available.

Length: 921ft 3in(280.80m)
Beam(Width): 121ft(36.93m) (Fun fact: They would have been the first US Battleships proposed that could not fit through the Panama Canal)
Height: Height is difficult to determine, as only Draft(Height below the waterline) is listed, at 36ft(10.97m). However, the Missouri's height is listed at 209ft 8in(63.9m) from keel to mast, and the draft at 38ft(11.6m). Meaning, if the numbers are compared, we can arrive at 199ft(60.65m) for the full height of the Montana-class from keel to mast.
Crew Complement: 2355(Planned)

Now, to arrive at the size of our fictional ship that could compare to an Imperial Battleship, we have to combine these two numbers. However, we don't want to simply add them, as we don't want to compare two ships to one. Some positions between a Battleship and Carrier are redundant and can be eliminated. We're not attempting to duct tape two ships together, we want to combine them into one 'supership'. So we'll be adding the numbers together, and then subtracting half of the average of the two ships to arrive at our final ship number. (Numbers are rounded for simplicity's sake)

Fictional "Imperial-Class" Battleship
Length: 1521ft(463.60m)
Beam: 283ft(86.25m)
Height: 337ft(102.71m)
Crew Complement: 5261

Imperium vs Fictional

So, as you can see above, we have arrived at our final numbers for an 'Imperial-Class' Supership. Now, to fully see how they would stack up vs an Imperium Battleship, we have to increase the scale of our supership to the scale of an Imperium Battleship. The question is... just how big IS an Imperium Battleship? This is where we run into a bit of an issue. I don't own any of the rulebooks that might give us exact numbers, but I was able to find a thread where it was stated that an Emperor-Class was 6km long, with a Crew Complement of 18,000 to 24,000 men. We'll split the difference at 21,000. Using these numbers as an example, we can then figure out what our Imperium ship might be.

Length: 19685.04ft(6000m)
Beam: ???
Height: ???
Crew Complement: 21,000

Unfortunately, it's impossible to determine just how large an Imperium ship is, as we are missing stats for the Beam and Height of the ship. However, just to have numbers, we CAN compare the Length of our fictional ship to the Beam and Height, determine the difference, and then apply this to our Imperium ship to have numbers to compare with. Using this method, we can arrive at:

Beam: 3666ft(1117m)
Height: 4364ft(1330m)

This gives us the final statistics of our Imperium vessel at:
Length: 19685ft(6000m)
Beam: 3666ft(1117m)
Height: 4364ft(1330m)
Crew Complement: 21,000

Now, for the fun part: How does this compare to our Fictional vessel, upsized to a similar scale? With the exact measurements of both ships to compare with, we can scale up our fictional ship to Warhammer 40k size, which has been stated to be 1/43 scale. That gives us:

Fictional Imperium-Scale Supership
Length: 65403ft(19934.8m)
Beam: 12168ft(3708.75m)
Height: 14490ft(4416.53m)
Crew Complement: 230,000

Which means that, at the end of the day, Warhammer 40k is a bit underscaled if you were to compare two similarly-sized 'capital' ships of the line.

However, there IS actually a Warhammer ship of similar size to our scaled-up Supership:
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Glor ... Battleship

Generally speaking, each Space Marine chapter only fielded one of these ships, making them entirely unique, and each one was personalized to the Chapter fielding it. There are also Abyss-class ships that were fielded by the traitor legions. However, given that I was attempting to compare 'line' ship to Line Ship, I haven't made a comparison between these larger ships and our fictional Supership.

So, after all that, if you've bothered to read, what do you think? Have I screwed up my math somewhere? Is this around what you were expecting?

Thank you, and this took a lot longer than I thought it would.

Carl
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Re: [Just For Fun]: Imperium Battleship Scale vs Real

Postby Carl » 08 April 2016, 21:31

We may not be able to get exact beam/height measurements but the models do allow visual approximations. 6km is, so so. 5km was the old official figure from a BB, but bearing in mind there was some room for slippage on that it works.

Flyingrhinoman
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Re: [Just For Fun]: Imperium Battleship Scale vs Real

Postby Flyingrhinoman » 08 April 2016, 21:44

In the old bfg mats they gave sizes for the cruisers and some of the bs.
A cruiser was I belive 4-5km long with a beam of .9 (this included the wing bits) with a height of.6

The retribution was listed as 7km long ( in the mags, seen it listed all the way to 12km) its beam was listed as 1.1km an a height of.9-1.0km
An Emperor-class was more or less the same except it was slightly taller and listed as 1.0-1.1 km tall

The in exact nature of measurements is due to the break down of the STC system( a computer that you ask for plans for a spaceship and it basically figured everything out for you including what materials where needed) so now all of the machines are broken I think and so all they have are fragments of the designs to build new ships. That is why the older the ship is the bigger and better it will be as it has more complete blueprints.
For those who challenge the might of the Imperium I laugh at you as you desperately try to damage the armored prow while I watch you scrabble to doge my glorious swarm of torpedoes. Eldar please run away

Slywyn
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Re: [Just For Fun]: Imperium Battleship Scale vs Real

Postby Slywyn » 08 April 2016, 21:53

The source I went for with the length of the Emperor was one of the books, where it was stated to be 6km. However, the exact measurements of the Imperium ships don't end up making that huge of a difference in the comparison, and this isn't meant to be any kind of official comparison or measurement of Imperium vs 'realistic', it's just something I did because I felt like it. =p

Carl
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Re: [Just For Fun]: Imperium Battleship Scale vs Real

Postby Carl » 08 April 2016, 23:14

And yet the old specialist games forums had a word from one of the devs, (probably Gav Thorpe), saying 1-2km for escorts 3-4km for cruisers and 5km for BB's.

ImperialDream
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Re: [Just For Fun]: Imperium Battleship Scale vs Real

Postby ImperialDream » 08 April 2016, 23:31

the ships in BFG:A appear to be scaled according to the measurements given in the Rogue Trader book (not sure which one).
Some examples
Dauntless class light cruiser: 4.5km
Firstorm class Frigate: 1.8km

After extracting the in game models, i found the lengths of these ships to be
Dauntless class light cruiser: 1000units
Firstorm class Frigate: 400units

As you can probably guess, 4.5/1.8 = 1000/400 = 2.5 ratio

In-game, the imperial battleships are 2000units long, making them 9km long if you scale them.
This makes sense given that Grand cruisers are around 7.5km long according to the same rulebook

Slywyn
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Re: [Just For Fun]: Imperium Battleship Scale vs Real

Postby Slywyn » 08 April 2016, 23:33

Still, they don't end up mattering all that much in the grand scheme of things.

I did find an interesting graphic, however.

http://www.shortlist.com/resource/binar ... /ships.jpg

This has many, many Sci-Fi ships on it, including several Warhammer 40k ships. The big white one in the middle left is the Gloriana-class, which is around the size of our 'Supership'.

Lord Nirgal
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Re: [Just For Fun]: Imperium Battleship Scale vs Real

Postby Lord Nirgal » 09 April 2016, 10:42

ImperialDream wrote:the ships in BFG:A appear to be scaled according to the measurements given in the Rogue Trader book (not sure which one).
Some examples
Dauntless class light cruiser: 4.5km
Firstorm class Frigate: 1.8km

After extracting the in game models, i found the lengths of these ships to be
Dauntless class light cruiser: 1000units
Firstorm class Frigate: 400units

As you can probably guess, 4.5/1.8 = 1000/400 = 2.5 ratio

In-game, the imperial battleships are 2000units long, making them 9km long if you scale them.
This makes sense given that Grand cruisers are around 7.5km long according to the same rulebook


yep, i belive that rogue trader was one of the major sources in the game design (luckly).

Malanthor
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Re: [Just For Fun]: Imperium Battleship Scale vs Real

Postby Malanthor » 09 April 2016, 18:11

Imperial battleships have far more than a crew of 21 k, although as with every fictional world ever created, there will be various sources claiming different things. I think I have read that imperial cruisers have from several thousand crew to 50,000, all from official sources. Logically based on how they are run, (by raw manpower in many cases) they would have a lot of crew.
Whoever claimes that a imperial battleship has a crew of 21k, official or not, have no clue how big these ships actually are.
6 km is frickin monstrous.

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Imperator5
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Re: [Just For Fun]: Imperium Battleship Scale vs Real

Postby Imperator5 » 29 April 2016, 09:30

There have been multiple ship scales mentioned in the background material.

Escorts: 1km to 3km (one time 20-30km)
Light Cruisers (most likely light cruiser too): 3-4,5 km
(Battle) Cruisers: 3km, 5km, 6km, 9km
Grand Cruisers: 7km, 13km
Battleships (most likely battlebarge too): 6km, 8km, 16km. (one time smaller than 2km)
Gloriana: 15km, 25km I think.

The not to scale models conform usually to the smaller numbers, the artwork to the bigger numbers, if we accept the Escorts being 1-3km long.
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

Please help me change skirmish to be customisable. Its very important for PVE players.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=515 Mod idea.


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