Mont'ka vs Kauyon

General discussion regarding the Tau Empire beta.
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Sir A Harris
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Re: Mont'ka vs Kauyon

Postby Sir A Harris » 13 September 2016, 16:55

The_Phalanx wrote:
Imperator5 wrote:The Tau already have the 2500 sight increase upgrade. So they don't need 5000 bonus sight, no thanks. That is way too much.

However if the accuracy bonus was made 5%with Kauyon without stealth needed, and maybe... hmm..

Why not give them an extra damage boost when they first attack from stealth? That would fit the ambush theme.


Everyone has that 2.5k sight increase. The point here is to make long range Tau more viable and therefore give them an advantage to shooting at that range. Saying that if a Tau ship were to spend an upgrade slot on the 2.5k sight upgrade is too much means that ships like the Emperor and Widowmaker are wwwwway too much since they already both can get 10k (15k in the Widowmaker's case). The way this would be used would be to give Escorts the upgrade and therefore you've got 10k Escorts (less than the Widowmaker) and 7.5k Cruisers (on par with the Emperor). Even if there's a Tau Cruiser with 10k vision, its rather meaningless since Tau accuracy past 9k is shit and they have no upgrades to improve it unlike pretty much every other faction.


exactly, it could work, but everyone bitches and whines shouting how OP they already are (which they aren't)

they are actually very balanced in terms of the game, just this art and the costs of tau vessels need a slight buff
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The_Phalanx
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Re: Mont'ka vs Kauyon

Postby The_Phalanx » 13 September 2016, 16:58

Ashardalon wrote:or the accuracy bonus being permanent and a bonus crit chance or damage when firing at rear armor unrevealed would fit with the ambush theme, you could benefit from sneaking around your opponent and then firing railguns torps and all the rest into his rear , could be a bit to effective against orks
as it is they are to slow to really do hit and run strikes leaving them with at best a 4k area where the current bonus applies that is easily boosted trough, and with stealth being the main meta everybody has detection skills removing even that

also can someone explain why there are so many people complaining tau have few detection skills when they have the exact same detection skills and upgrades as everyone else



The complaints about Tau detection comes from probably 3 things;

1. Fighting other Tau with Stealth Alloys leaves much to be desired from Tau innate detection.
2. Tau fleets then to have less available skill slots than counterparts; at 300 points you get 3 skills with an Emissary/Protector combo or 4 skills with a Demuirg Stronghold and escort combo. You can bring a Protector/Warsphere for 6 skills, but Warsphere is pretty shit. Other factions at 300 points can bring at least 4 skills, and in the case of Imperial Navy, they can bring 6 skills or 5 skills and a Widowmaker. Less skills means you have to make some serious sacrifices to bring Beacons and Probes.
3. Tau are characterized by being good at long range and less good at short range. But in BFGA, if they were supposed to be really good at long range they're lacking a lot of stuff that makes Imperial Navy much better, such as accuracy upgrades the ability to project vision like ImpNavy does.

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Ashardalon
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Re: Mont'ka vs Kauyon

Postby Ashardalon » 13 September 2016, 17:29

2.guess what target priority nr 1 is with my tzeensh fleet, any eldar fleet, tau stealth fleet probably?
widowmakers, they are fragile as a compensation for their bs detection, allowing for a mad dash to kill them off and then gtfo and be stealthy again
an entire tau fleet with 10k detection would not allow for this counter play, there is no protecting of a little escort in the back
it just means that tau will have an upgraded augur probe built in and leave a chaos carrier fleet who at 300pts has 2-3 skills with a 1.5k engagement range after using its recon beacon that tau can just dash out and run silent
bombers return if your target is lost for even a moment while homing torps can still be manually helped in the right direction if you lose a target making augur probes viable for tau as they are for SM which it is not for chaos
tau detection is not a weakness, they have more ways to use detection as is, making those skills more powerful and worthwhile
and unless you take a lot of hookships to cheeze escort spam you will have as many skills unless your opponent built his fleet specifically for skill spam
chaos tends to be seen as the most balanced faction so taking those, at 700pts i usually have 6 skills the same as my tau fleet,
my ork fleet similarly has 6 skills although my ork fleet isnt very typical

3.on their effectiveness at long range, they seem fine to me but i get what you mean with no upgrades that improve their long range effectiveness but improving detection as a way of improving the damage once you get detection doesnt seem like a good idea to me

1.also on stealth alloy just wait for the first torp launch... unless you are using stealth alloy too...
that seems annoying :lol:

Adrmial Seraph
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Re: Mont'ka vs Kauyon

Postby Adrmial Seraph » 13 September 2016, 19:12

Yeah, 10k detection Tau would be too much. But taking the 2.5k upgrade for Tau is a problem because they need other upgrades as well just to compete vs later fleets. You'd have to take Earth Cate on every single ship to fit the integral upgrades that make Tau good.

Kauyon should give a bonus detection range of 25% as well.

That would boost Tau ship detection to 6250 without sensor upgrade.
With sensor upgrade we're looking at 9375.

So basically I'd change it to this:

Kauyon:
By engaging the kauyon warfare, the accuracy loss of every ship is reduced by 5% every 3k units as long as your ships aren't identified. Additionally all unidentified Tau ships gain 25% detection range as well as the ability "Targeting Array" which further increases accuracy against the targeted ship by 5% for every 3k units against the targeted ship.

Targeting Array would last 30 seconds, be tied to the bridge, have a 180 second cooldown and would be stackable.

So if you had mass Emissaries target 1 ship with it you'd have Targeting Array accuracy bonus applied x4 for all Tau ships. The short duration would prevent it from being highly abused.

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Sir A Harris
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Re: Mont'ka vs Kauyon

Postby Sir A Harris » 13 September 2016, 19:46

Adrmial Seraph wrote:Yeah, 10k detection Tau would be too much. But taking the 2.5k upgrade for Tau is a problem because they need other upgrades as well just to compete vs later fleets. You'd have to take Earth Cate on every single ship to fit the integral upgrades that make Tau good.

Kauyon should give a bonus detection range of 25% as well.

That would boost Tau ship detection to 6250 without sensor upgrade.
With sensor upgrade we're looking at 9375.

So basically I'd change it to this:

Kauyon:
By engaging the kauyon warfare, the accuracy loss of every ship is reduced by 5% every 3k units as long as your ships aren't identified. Additionally all unidentified Tau ships gain 25% detection range as well as the ability "Targeting Array" which further increases accuracy against the targeted ship by 5% for every 3k units against the targeted ship.

Targeting Array would last 30 seconds, be tied to the bridge, have a 180 second cooldown and would be stackable.

So if you had mass Emissaries target 1 ship with it you'd have Targeting Array accuracy bonus applied x4 for all Tau ships. The short duration would prevent it from being highly abused.


seems like a much better addition
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Imperator5
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Re: Mont'ka vs Kauyon

Postby Imperator5 » 13 September 2016, 20:54

The other races sacrifice other upgrades for the sight update too.
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

Please help me change skirmish to be customisable. Its very important for PVE players.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=515 Mod idea.

Adrmial Seraph
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Re: Mont'ka vs Kauyon

Postby Adrmial Seraph » 13 September 2016, 21:16

Imperator5 wrote:The other races sacrifice other upgrades for the sight update too.


Irrelevant, different factions are different.

Beernchips
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Re: Mont'ka vs Kauyon

Postby Beernchips » 13 September 2016, 21:23

Its relevant, other races don t have this free buff and Tau don t need a free advantage on vision over other factions. Otherwise Chaos should have 10kbase vision to help them have the best use of their long range weaponry?
The warpath is a good addition if it help you define a strategy, it is not good if it gives strong free buffs.
Mont ka is nearly having the SM traits on Tau (reduce enemy troop value + better chance to get the subsystem targetted), no need to bring Kauyon into "Tau have same accuracy as Eldar"
I would rather prefer the 2 warpath to bring buffs AND drawbacks and that you can also choose to NOT take a path.
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Ashardalon
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Re: Mont'ka vs Kauyon

Postby Ashardalon » 13 September 2016, 21:31

but its the same upgrade, and other factions are sacrificing upgrades that give them additional dps
similarly stealth is the same mechanic, if i could get it for free i would have the detection upgrade on all my ships but as it is now
my orks dont have it ,neither do my eldar, space marines, or chaos
only imperials with two dedicated detection ships with their own weaknesses have i seen it as worth it to sacrifice an upgrade to get the better detection, maybe on iconiclasts too they are basicly disposable augur probes
it would also make augur disruption completely useless since you wont go stealth again until you hold fire loosing what little time it bought you
tau have some amazing skills and upgrades so i get how having to choose can feel worse
but they arnt worth more than another factions upgrades, they get as many ,even more than chaos or eldar who dont have a +1upgrade favor

Adrmial Seraph
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Re: Mont'ka vs Kauyon

Postby Adrmial Seraph » 13 September 2016, 21:36

Beernchips wrote:Its relevant, other races don t have this free buff and Tau don t need a free advantage on vision over other factions. Otherwise Chaos should have 10kbase vision to help them have the best use of their long range weaponry?
The warpath is a good addition if it help you define a strategy, it is not good if it gives strong free buffs.
Mont ka is nearly having the SM traits on Tau (reduce enemy troop value + better chance to get the subsystem targetted), no need to bring Kauyon into "Tau have same accuracy as Eldar"
I would rather prefer the 2 warpath to bring buffs AND drawbacks and that you can also choose to NOT take a path.


I'm gonna say this one more time because you didn't quite get it the 1st time.

Different races are different. Comparing them is irrelevant within this context.


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