Stronghold might be too good for it's point cost.

General discussion regarding the Tau Empire beta.
Adrmial Seraph
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Re: Stronghold might be too good for it's point cost.

Postby Adrmial Seraph » 13 September 2016, 21:26

The_Phalanx wrote:
Adrmial Seraph wrote:
The_Phalanx wrote:Switching to DPS to Burst really doesn't change much here. The Dethdeala still has the worst burst, but still has considerable burst from Zapp, Torps, and Ramming. The Retribution still has the best burst because 3x 4 Plasma Macro Batteries from each Broadside + Turrets is still better than the Burst from the Stronghold. The Stronghold is not a 246 point ship.


Good thing we're not looking at the deathdeala and the Retribution. We're looking at the Stronghold, which has high burst. The stronghold IS a 246 point ship because it has very high dps, long range, comes with asteroid ignoring shields, can be fielded in pairs, has a large ordinance screen.

Point value is relative to the supporting fleet too, we can't look at things in a bubble.


You can move the goalposts all you want with this discussion, but I've already quantified why the ship is not a 246 point cost ship. It does not have the stats for that kind of point cost nor does it somehow syngerize better with other ships in the Tau fleet than the Retribution or Dethdeala do with their own fleets that somehow makes the Stronghold need to have the same point cost of a Retribution. I can easily go through every other battleship in the game and show you why the Stronghold is at the 216 point cost -- spoiler its because its weaker than those battleships. It is only stronger than the Dethdeala and not by much.


I'm not moving goalposts, I'm pointing out that there's more factors that you haven't brought up. :/ Don't get defensive because you're talking to someone who actually thinks things through, lol.

The_Phalanx
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Re: Stronghold might be too good for it's point cost.

Postby The_Phalanx » 13 September 2016, 21:37

Adrmial Seraph wrote:
The_Phalanx wrote:
Adrmial Seraph wrote:
Good thing we're not looking at the deathdeala and the Retribution. We're looking at the Stronghold, which has high burst. The stronghold IS a 246 point ship because it has very high dps, long range, comes with asteroid ignoring shields, can be fielded in pairs, has a large ordinance screen.

Point value is relative to the supporting fleet too, we can't look at things in a bubble.


You can move the goalposts all you want with this discussion, but I've already quantified why the ship is not a 246 point cost ship. It does not have the stats for that kind of point cost nor does it somehow syngerize better with other ships in the Tau fleet than the Retribution or Dethdeala do with their own fleets that somehow makes the Stronghold need to have the same point cost of a Retribution. I can easily go through every other battleship in the game and show you why the Stronghold is at the 216 point cost -- spoiler its because its weaker than those battleships. It is only stronger than the Dethdeala and not by much.


I'm not moving goalposts, I'm pointing out that there's more factors that you haven't brought up. :/ Don't get defensive because you're talking to someone who actually thinks things through, lol.


You haven't brought up a single thing that I haven't addressed. Very high dps? The Retribution has better dps. Long Range? The Retribution has longer ranged weapons, better accuracy at those ranges, and it can field a Widowmaker to actually see and hit at those ranges. Fielded in pairs? Meaningless. Bump up your Strongholds to 246 and that means I can take a Retribution, Overlord, and Widowmaker for less points and destroy your two Strongholds. I've already stated that the asteroid field is not a bonus as it can easily be a liability in the match. The Cutting Beam does a lot of damage, but it can also be completely nullified by the use of Supercharged Void Shields.

Adrmial Seraph
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Re: Stronghold might be too good for it's point cost.

Postby Adrmial Seraph » 13 September 2016, 21:57

The_Phalanx wrote:
Adrmial Seraph wrote:
The_Phalanx wrote:
You can move the goalposts all you want with this discussion, but I've already quantified why the ship is not a 246 point cost ship. It does not have the stats for that kind of point cost nor does it somehow syngerize better with other ships in the Tau fleet than the Retribution or Dethdeala do with their own fleets that somehow makes the Stronghold need to have the same point cost of a Retribution. I can easily go through every other battleship in the game and show you why the Stronghold is at the 216 point cost -- spoiler its because its weaker than those battleships. It is only stronger than the Dethdeala and not by much.


I'm not moving goalposts, I'm pointing out that there's more factors that you haven't brought up. :/ Don't get defensive because you're talking to someone who actually thinks things through, lol.


You haven't brought up a single thing that I haven't addressed. Very high dps? The Retribution has better dps. Long Range? The Retribution has longer ranged weapons, better accuracy at those ranges, and it can field a Widowmaker to actually see and hit at those ranges. Fielded in pairs? Meaningless. Bump up your Strongholds to 246 and that means I can take a Retribution, Overlord, and Widowmaker for less points and destroy your two Strongholds. I've already stated that the asteroid field is not a bonus as it can easily be a liability in the match. The Cutting Beam does a lot of damage, but it can also be completely nullified by the use of Supercharged Void Shields.


Why are you comparing the Retribution to the Stronghold? Race synergy matters a lot here. The Stronghold might be immobile and has a few caveats but with it's low point cost for it's class and it's well rounded weaponry WITH the support of Protectors and like like, it's near impossible to kill unless you focus it down and if you do focus it down you have to worry about the rest of the fleet ravaging you.

The key component here is the synergy it has with the rest of the tau fleet, which is rather high. Alone, the Stronghold is not an issue because you can kite it, much like you kite a Battle Barge mk 1.

You haven't addressed it's synergy with the Tau vessels. You quickly dismissed the idea out of hand. You also don't factor in that it's defender's advantage as a ship is absolutely insane. I mean, yeah, it's a Stronghold but it's so good at this aspect that it literally defines Tau vs Tau.

The_Phalanx
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Re: Stronghold might be too good for it's point cost.

Postby The_Phalanx » 13 September 2016, 22:40

If you don't understand why I'm comparing it to other battleships, especially a battleship that would have the same point cost as Strongholds, than you don't understand how points work. The whole point of a point cost is that if you bring the same amount of points as I do, then the fight should be an even, balanced fight that would be decided purely by player skill. However, as I clearly demonstrated, the Stronghold is not equal to the Retribution. Which means if I were to bring a Retribution and you were to bring a Stronghold, you'd lose. If you were to bring a Stronghold and a Messenger for a 300 point game compared to a Retribution and a Widowmaker, you'd still lose.

You keep saying Stronghold - Tau synergy, but you're using it as some sort of blank check "I'm right" button. What synergy are you so afraid? You have failed to actually demonstrate any sort of scenario where the Stronghold syngerizes into some sort of deathball capable of defeating a Retribution.

500 points?
216 -> Retribution/Overlord/Widowmaker vs 2xStronghold/2xMessenger
246 -> Retribution/Overlord/Widowmaker vs 2xStronghold

600 points?
216 -> Retribution/Mars/Dominator vs Stronghold/2xProtector/Messenger
246 -> Retribution/Mars/Dominator vs Stronghold/2xProtector

700 points?
216 -> Emperor/3xGothic vs 2xStronghold/Protector/Emissary
246 -> Emperor/3xGothic vs 2xStronghold/Protector/Messenger

800 points?
216 -> Emperor/Overlord/Mars/Dominator/Widowmaker vs 2xStronghold/2xProtector/Messenger
246 -> Emperor/Overlord/Mars/Dominator/Widowmaker vs 2xStronghold/Protector/Emissary/Messenger

So which of these setups somehow has a syngery advantage for Tau that allows them overperform for their point cost? Because all I'm seeing is all of these super long range bombardment from the Imperials that Tau have no real answer for. You will be detected before you guns get into range in all of these setups. Your Protectors and Emissaries will then get melted by concentrated Lance fire or from the Dominator/Mars Nova Cannon barrage. Stronghold ordnance will have to switch to pure Fighter Drone spams because sending out bombers would mean getting fucked by the constant and endless torp barrages from the Imperials. Though it'll be futile, because the Imperials will proceed to maintain 9k engagement distance, at which Stronghold DPS is all but shit, while maintaining the majority of their own DPS and melt your Strongholds. If you try to hide in clouds or asteroid fields, you'll get scouted out by probes as the Imperials will have considerably more skill slots than you do thanks to AM Favor.

So please, move the goalpost once more.

Adrmial Seraph
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Re: Stronghold might be too good for it's point cost.

Postby Adrmial Seraph » 13 September 2016, 22:56

The_Phalanx wrote:If you don't understand why I'm comparing it to other battleships, especially a battleship that would have the same point cost as Strongholds, than you don't understand how points work. The whole point of a point cost is that if you bring the same amount of points as I do, then the fight should be an even, balanced fight that would be decided purely by player skill.


This assumes symmetrical design, which isn't the case for 2 reasons.

1) Fleet build (this matters the most in mirror matches where you're correct, bar this factor)
2) Different races are different

However, as I clearly demonstrated, the Stronghold is not equal to the Retribution. Which means if I were to bring a Retribution and you were to bring a Stronghold, you'd lose. If you were to bring a Stronghold and a Messenger for a 300 point game compared to a Retribution and a Widowmaker, you'd still lose.


*facepalm* I don't think you're getting it. You're not considering enough factors. I've gone over them several times but it's just not registering with you for some reason. :/

You keep saying Stronghold - Tau synergy, but you're using it as some sort of blank check "I'm right" button. What synergy are you so afraid? You have failed to actually demonstrate any sort of scenario where the Stronghold syngerizes into some sort of deathball capable of defeating a Retribution.


The problem with naming specific examples in an argument with people who don't consider the variables correctly is they take that as a challenge and bring up counters, not realizing it's one example. I've been down this road before, I know where it leads.

500 points?
216 -> Retribution/Overlord/Widowmaker vs 2xStronghold/2xMessenger
246 -> Retribution/Overlord/Widowmaker vs 2xStronghold


Why would you bring 2 strongholds? That's about as smart as bringing 2 Warspheres and in a 500 point game, where you don't get as much synergy due to a lack of complete fleet build.

600 points?
216 -> Retribution/Mars/Dominator vs Stronghold/2xProtector/Messenger
246 -> Retribution/Mars/Dominator vs Stronghold/2xProtector


That's looking better, now lets account for the Water Caste favor. the longer you wait and try to shell, the worse off you are as they'll have the ability to call in multiple Dhows, presumably with seeker+markerlight+extra turrets. Enough of them will utterly decimate a IN fleet. plus there's the shelling from torps.

700 points?
216 -> Emperor/3xGothic vs 2xStronghold/Protector/Emissary
246 -> Emperor/3xGothic vs 2xStronghold/Protector/Messenger


Again, 2 stronghold. That's a bad decision as you're not investing into the synergy of tau long range, repair drone stacking and other goodies like Dhow spam off of Water Caste or mass experimental railguns off of Earth Caste.

800 points?
216 -> Emperor/Overlord/Mars/Dominator/Widowmaker vs 2xStronghold/2xProtector/Messenger
246 -> Emperor/Overlord/Mars/Dominator/Widowmaker vs 2xStronghold/Protector/Emissary/Messenger


This doesn't happen, you can't play a 800 point game unless it's 2v2.

So which of these setups somehow has a syngery advantage for Tau that allows them overperform for their point cost? Because all I'm seeing is all of these super long range bombardment from the Imperials that Tau have no real answer for. You will be detected before you guns get into range in all of these setups. Your Protectors and Emissaries will then get melted by concentrated Lance fire or from the Dominator/Mars Nova Cannon barrage. Stronghold ordnance will have to switch to pure Fighter Drone spams because sending out bombers would mean getting fucked by the constant and endless torp barrages from the Imperials. Though it'll be futile, because the Imperials will proceed to maintain 9k engagement distance, at which Stronghold DPS is all but shit, while maintaining the majority of their own DPS and melt your Strongholds. If you try to hide in clouds or asteroid fields, you'll get scouted out by probes as the Imperials will have considerably more skill slots than you do thanks to AM Favor.


This makes a lot of assumptions in a variable salad.

1st off who in their right mind would get their protectors/emissaries into range of that composition? 2nd who in their right mind gets 2 Strongholds? 3rd turrets with markerlight take care of all but the worst and most concentrated torpedo spam. And you yourself as an IN player won't have the ordinance to defend vs mantas and missiles with these unit compositions.

So please, move the goalpost once more.


Perhaps the problem here isn't "goalpost" as much as it's your flawed understanding of how game design and variables work?

The_Phalanx
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Re: Stronghold might be too good for it's point cost.

Postby The_Phalanx » 14 September 2016, 00:21

Adrmial Seraph wrote:
The_Phalanx wrote:If you don't understand why I'm comparing it to other battleships, especially a battleship that would have the same point cost as Strongholds, than you don't understand how points work. The whole point of a point cost is that if you bring the same amount of points as I do, then the fight should be an even, balanced fight that would be decided purely by player skill.


This assumes symmetrical design, which isn't the case for 2 reasons.

1) Fleet build (this matters the most in mirror matches where you're correct, bar this factor)
2) Different races are different


Negative, this doesn't assume symmetrical design. The whole point of a point system is so that two distinct groups of ships who are valued at the same point cost have an even chance of winning. The different abilities and racial traits within the two groups should be balanced to where the point cost is reflective. To figure out if a ship is overperforming or underperforming, then you need to look at how it relates to ships of a similar class and point cost. Of course a Dominator at 155 points is better than a Basha at 87 points, and of course a Basha at 87 points is better than a Castellan at 55 points, just as an Emissary at 102 points should be all but as capable as a Dauntless at 105 points.

However, as I clearly demonstrated, the Stronghold is not equal to the Retribution. Which means if I were to bring a Retribution and you were to bring a Stronghold, you'd lose. If you were to bring a Stronghold and a Messenger for a 300 point game compared to a Retribution and a Widowmaker, you'd still lose.


*facepalm* I don't think you're getting it. You're not considering enough factors. I've gone over them several times but it's just not registering with you for some reason. :/


There are no other factors to consider. You are just continuing to move the goal post. The Stronghold is certifiably weaker than a Retribution, but you want it to cost as much as Retribution.

You keep saying Stronghold - Tau synergy, but you're using it as some sort of blank check "I'm right" button. What synergy are you so afraid? You have failed to actually demonstrate any sort of scenario where the Stronghold syngerizes into some sort of deathball capable of defeating a Retribution.


The problem with naming specific examples in an argument with people who don't consider the variables correctly is they take that as a challenge and bring up counters, not realizing it's one example. I've been down this road before, I know where it leads.


That's the point of a discussion. You need to prove you are right. You have failed to prove anything.

500 points?
216 -> Retribution/Overlord/Widowmaker vs 2xStronghold/2xMessenger
246 -> Retribution/Overlord/Widowmaker vs 2xStronghold


Why would you bring 2 strongholds? That's about as smart as bringing 2 Warspheres and in a 500 point game, where you don't get as much synergy due to a lack of complete fleet build.


You listed as the ability to field 2 Strongholds as a reason as it should have its point cost increased. If you don't agree with fielding two Strongholds, why would you even bring it up?

600 points?
216 -> Retribution/Mars/Dominator vs Stronghold/2xProtector/Messenger
246 -> Retribution/Mars/Dominator vs Stronghold/2xProtector


That's looking better, now lets account for the Water Caste favor. the longer you wait and try to shell, the worse off you are as they'll have the ability to call in multiple Dhows, presumably with seeker+markerlight+extra turrets. Enough of them will utterly decimate a IN fleet. plus there's the shelling from torps.


Why would the Imperial Navy player give you the ability to summon more than one? Of course being allowed to sit in a cloud for 15 minutes would mean a victory for the Tau player. That has nothing to do with Strongholds and everything to do with a retarded player. A non-retarded player is going to focus on engaging before you can build up a critical mass of Dhows. Potentially, the engagement could even happen before you manage to spawn your first set of Dhows -- 3 minutes is a long time afterall. Furthermore the Imperial Navy has their own Imperial Navy favor that they could use to call in their own massed escorts.

700 points?
216 -> Emperor/3xGothic vs 2xStronghold/Protector/Emissary
246 -> Emperor/3xGothic vs 2xStronghold/Protector/Messenger


Again, 2 stronghold. That's a bad decision as you're not investing into the synergy of tau long range, repair drone stacking and other goodies like Dhow spam off of Water Caste or mass experimental railguns off of Earth Caste.


See previous comment for double Stronghold and for Dhow spam. Railgun spam is a completely different issue that needs its own nerf and has nothing to do with Strongholds.

800 points?
216 -> Emperor/Overlord/Mars/Dominator/Widowmaker vs 2xStronghold/2xProtector/Messenger
246 -> Emperor/Overlord/Mars/Dominator/Widowmaker vs 2xStronghold/Protector/Emissary/Messenger


This doesn't happen, you can't play a 800 point game unless it's 2v2.


800 point games are available in 1v1s. You can do them in Custom matches.

So which of these setups somehow has a syngery advantage for Tau that allows them overperform for their point cost? Because all I'm seeing is all of these super long range bombardment from the Imperials that Tau have no real answer for. You will be detected before you guns get into range in all of these setups. Your Protectors and Emissaries will then get melted by concentrated Lance fire or from the Dominator/Mars Nova Cannon barrage. Stronghold ordnance will have to switch to pure Fighter Drone spams because sending out bombers would mean getting fucked by the constant and endless torp barrages from the Imperials. Though it'll be futile, because the Imperials will proceed to maintain 9k engagement distance, at which Stronghold DPS is all but shit, while maintaining the majority of their own DPS and melt your Strongholds. If you try to hide in clouds or asteroid fields, you'll get scouted out by probes as the Imperials will have considerably more skill slots than you do thanks to AM Favor.


This makes a lot of assumptions in a variable salad.

1st off who in their right mind would get their protectors/emissaries into range of that composition? 2nd who in their right mind gets 2 Strongholds? 3rd turrets with markerlight take care of all but the worst and most concentrated torpedo spam. And you yourself as an IN player won't have the ordinance to defend vs mantas and missiles with these unit compositions.


You cannot avoid getting into range of that composition unless you've decided you just aren't going to use your Protectors and Emissaries to fight. An Emperor can have a range of 12.5k detection and the weapons of all of the ships in that composition can be boosted up to at least 9k range with more accuracy than Tau weaponry -- with many of the ships able to get their weaponry to shoot out to 15k, far beyond Tau weapon ranges. If you want to sit back and railgun spam, than the Imperial can sit back and Nova Cannon spam while using a stealthed Widowmaker to spot you without being spotted in of itself. It is all but impossible for Tau to spot a Widowmaker before the Widowmaker spots them.

If you'd rather drop a Stronghold for more Protectors and Emissaries, than the Overlord can be dropped to bring more Dominators to bring more Nova Cannons. Massed Repair drones won't save you when the alpha from the Dominators is greater than the total health of your Protector and Emissaries.

So please, move the goalpost once more.


Perhaps the problem here isn't "goalpost" as much as it's your flawed understanding of how game design and variables work?


There's no flawed understanding, there's just your unwillingness to actually have a discussion. You're bringing up the equivalent of buzzwords and soundbytes; you have no argument, you have no substance. Your original post was that it had too much weaponry and too much health for the 216 point cost. I have clearly demonstrated that it does not, in fact there ships with lesser point costs that more health and just as much weaponry. The synergy argument falls flat because what you really mean by synergy is capitalizing on Tau cheese that needs to be looked at in of itself -- the Stronghold isn't the problem, Exp Railguns, Seekers, and Markerlights are the problem. If at 216 points you don't actually find that its worth bringing 2 Strongholds and instead have problems with other parts of the Tau arsenal, why the hell did you even bother starting this thread?

tazercow
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Re: Stronghold might be too good for it's point cost.

Postby tazercow » 14 September 2016, 00:30

Seraph, the only reasoning you have provided for your position so far is that the Stronghold has too much HP and weapons for its point cost, and then suggesting a new cost that happens to be the exact same as the Retribution, while claiming that it has nothing to do with the Retribution.

I agree with you that the cost of a ship isn't purely decided by comparing it to similar ships in different fleets, but there are a few key pieces of information that you haven't provided to back up your position.

Changing a ships cost has a direct affect on fleet compositions at certain point values. What current fleet compositions are overpowered with the Stronghold's current cost? What new fleet compositions would result from this change and how would they be more balanced?

I think it's also important to take into consideration the unique limitations of the Stronghold compared to other ships, even from other fleets. Unupgraded, the Stronghold may compare favorably to other BBs, but at level 10, its inability to upgrade its crew and choice of a single pre-nerfed favor severely hampers its effectiveness.

Adrmial Seraph
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Re: Stronghold might be too good for it's point cost.

Postby Adrmial Seraph » 14 September 2016, 00:46

The_Phalanx wrote:
Adrmial Seraph wrote:
The_Phalanx wrote:If you don't understand why I'm comparing it to other battleships, especially a battleship that would have the same point cost as Strongholds, than you don't understand how points work. The whole point of a point cost is that if you bring the same amount of points as I do, then the fight should be an even, balanced fight that would be decided purely by player skill.


This assumes symmetrical design, which isn't the case for 2 reasons.

1) Fleet build (this matters the most in mirror matches where you're correct, bar this factor)
2) Different races are different


Negative, this doesn't assume symmetrical design. The whole point of a point system is so that two distinct groups of ships who are valued at the same point cost have an even chance of winning. The different abilities and racial traits within the two groups should be balanced to where the point cost is reflective. To figure out if a ship is overperforming or underperforming, then you need to look at how it relates to ships of a similar class and point cost. Of course a Dominator at 155 points is better than a Basha at 87 points, and of course a Basha at 87 points is better than a Castellan at 55 points, just as an Emissary at 102 points should be all but as capable as a Dauntless at 105 points.


Okay, lets assume you're right. How do you explain Orks then, who have cheaper ships that pack just as much of a punch as more expensive ships from other factions? Points don't just matter in comparison to other races, they matter in relation to what tools the race has.

However, as I clearly demonstrated, the Stronghold is not equal to the Retribution. Which means if I were to bring a Retribution and you were to bring a Stronghold, you'd lose. If you were to bring a Stronghold and a Messenger for a 300 point game compared to a Retribution and a Widowmaker, you'd still lose.


*facepalm* I don't think you're getting it. You're not considering enough factors. I've gone over them several times but it's just not registering with you for some reason. :/


There are no other factors to consider. You are just continuing to move the goal post. The Stronghold is certifiably weaker than a Retribution, but you want it to cost as much as Retribution.[/quote]

That's a b.s. excuse and you know it. I've carefully outlined the additional factors. You are in the wrong here, stop trying to be right.

You keep saying Stronghold - Tau synergy, but you're using it as some sort of blank check "I'm right" button. What synergy are you so afraid? You have failed to actually demonstrate any sort of scenario where the Stronghold syngerizes into some sort of deathball capable of defeating a Retribution.


The problem with naming specific examples in an argument with people who don't consider the variables correctly is they take that as a challenge and bring up counters, not realizing it's one example. I've been down this road before, I know where it leads.


That's the point of a discussion. You need to prove you are right. You have failed to prove anything.

500 points?
216 -> Retribution/Overlord/Widowmaker vs 2xStronghold/2xMessenger
246 -> Retribution/Overlord/Widowmaker vs 2xStronghold


Why would you bring 2 strongholds? That's about as smart as bringing 2 Warspheres and in a 500 point game, where you don't get as much synergy due to a lack of complete fleet build.


You listed as the ability to field 2 Strongholds as a reason as it should have its point cost increased. If you don't agree with fielding two Strongholds, why would you even bring it up?

600 points?
216 -> Retribution/Mars/Dominator vs Stronghold/2xProtector/Messenger
246 -> Retribution/Mars/Dominator vs Stronghold/2xProtector


That's looking better, now lets account for the Water Caste favor. the longer you wait and try to shell, the worse off you are as they'll have the ability to call in multiple Dhows, presumably with seeker+markerlight+extra turrets. Enough of them will utterly decimate a IN fleet. plus there's the shelling from torps.


Why would the Imperial Navy player give you the ability to summon more than one? Of course being allowed to sit in a cloud for 15 minutes would mean a victory for the Tau player. That has nothing to do with Strongholds and everything to do with a retarded player. A non-retarded player is going to focus on engaging before you can build up a critical mass of Dhows. Potentially, the engagement could even happen before you manage to spawn your first set of Dhows -- 3 minutes is a long time afterall. Furthermore the Imperial Navy has their own Imperial Navy favor that they could use to call in their own massed escorts.

700 points?
216 -> Emperor/3xGothic vs 2xStronghold/Protector/Emissary
246 -> Emperor/3xGothic vs 2xStronghold/Protector/Messenger


Again, 2 stronghold. That's a bad decision as you're not investing into the synergy of tau long range, repair drone stacking and other goodies like Dhow spam off of Water Caste or mass experimental railguns off of Earth Caste.


See previous comment for double Stronghold and for Dhow spam. Railgun spam is a completely different issue that needs its own nerf and has nothing to do with Strongholds.

800 points?
216 -> Emperor/Overlord/Mars/Dominator/Widowmaker vs 2xStronghold/2xProtector/Messenger
246 -> Emperor/Overlord/Mars/Dominator/Widowmaker vs 2xStronghold/Protector/Emissary/Messenger


This doesn't happen, you can't play a 800 point game unless it's 2v2.


800 point games are available in 1v1s. You can do them in Custom matches.

So which of these setups somehow has a syngery advantage for Tau that allows them overperform for their point cost? Because all I'm seeing is all of these super long range bombardment from the Imperials that Tau have no real answer for. You will be detected before you guns get into range in all of these setups. Your Protectors and Emissaries will then get melted by concentrated Lance fire or from the Dominator/Mars Nova Cannon barrage. Stronghold ordnance will have to switch to pure Fighter Drone spams because sending out bombers would mean getting fucked by the constant and endless torp barrages from the Imperials. Though it'll be futile, because the Imperials will proceed to maintain 9k engagement distance, at which Stronghold DPS is all but shit, while maintaining the majority of their own DPS and melt your Strongholds. If you try to hide in clouds or asteroid fields, you'll get scouted out by probes as the Imperials will have considerably more skill slots than you do thanks to AM Favor.


This makes a lot of assumptions in a variable salad.

1st off who in their right mind would get their protectors/emissaries into range of that composition? 2nd who in their right mind gets 2 Strongholds? 3rd turrets with markerlight take care of all but the worst and most concentrated torpedo spam. And you yourself as an IN player won't have the ordinance to defend vs mantas and missiles with these unit compositions.


You cannot avoid getting into range of that composition unless you've decided you just aren't going to use your Protectors and Emissaries to fight. An Emperor can have a range of 12.5k detection and the weapons of all of the ships in that composition can be boosted up to at least 9k range with more accuracy than Tau weaponry -- with many of the ships able to get their weaponry to shoot out to 15k, far beyond Tau weapon ranges. If you want to sit back and railgun spam, than the Imperial can sit back and Nova Cannon spam while using a stealthed Widowmaker to spot you without being spotted in of itself. It is all but impossible for Tau to spot a Widowmaker before the Widowmaker spots them.

If you'd rather drop a Stronghold for more Protectors and Emissaries, than the Overlord can be dropped to bring more Dominators to bring more Nova Cannons. Massed Repair drones won't save you when the alpha from the Dominators is greater than the total health of your Protector and Emissaries.

So please, move the goalpost once more.


Perhaps the problem here isn't "goalpost" as much as it's your flawed understanding of how game design and variables work?


There's no flawed understanding, there's just your unwillingness to actually have a discussion. You're bringing up the equivalent of buzzwords and soundbytes; you have no argument, you have no substance. Your original post was that it had too much weaponry and too much health for the 216 point cost. I have clearly demonstrated that it does not, in fact there ships with lesser point costs that more health and just as much weaponry. The synergy argument falls flat because what you really mean by synergy is capitalizing on Tau cheese that needs to be looked at in of itself -- the Stronghold isn't the problem, Exp Railguns, Seekers, and Markerlights are the problem. If at 216 points you don't actually find that its worth bringing 2 Strongholds and instead have problems with other parts of the Tau arsenal, why the hell did you even bother starting this thread?[/quote]

I really can't be bothered with the rest of this post. I have better things to do with my time than to explain that there are additional variables and then list them only to have you go "nu-uh! I'm RIGHT". But as a last pointer, I only mentioned 2 strongholds in the very specific context of defender on Space Station Assault.

You're just not on the same wavelength I am so this is pointless.

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Ahzek Ahriman
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Re: Stronghold might be too good for it's point cost.

Postby Ahzek Ahriman » 14 September 2016, 01:13

Don't mind him, Seraph always assumes "I'm smart you're stupid, your arguments are invalid" attitude. You're only gonna wrack your nerves arguing with the gnome.
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The_Phalanx
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Re: Stronghold might be too good for it's point cost.

Postby The_Phalanx » 14 September 2016, 01:21

Ahzek Ahriman wrote:Don't mind him, Seraph always assumes "I'm smart you're stupid, your arguments are invalid" attitude. You're only gonna wrack your nerves arguing with the gnome.


Good thing that Seraph isn't the person that actually needs to be convinced.

@Seraph,

The one and only time you mentioned pairs you mentioned it here;

We're looking at the Stronghold, which has high burst. The stronghold IS a 246 point ship because it has very high dps, long range, comes with asteroid ignoring shields, can be fielded in pairs, has a large ordinance screen.


You'll notice there's not a single mention of Space Station Assault. Furthermore, a ctrl+F through the thread shows the only place Space Station Assault shows up is in your last post. You do mention defender at some point, but in actuality there's no real defender benefit. It's not hard at all to force the ship out of an asteroid field -- hiding a Stronghold in an asteroid isn't some magical advantage, its more of a liability since it becomes very obvious where your ship is. Enjoy endless torps and Nova Cannons.


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