Stronghold might be too good for it's point cost.

General discussion regarding the Tau Empire beta.
Adrmial Seraph
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Re: Stronghold might be too good for it's point cost.

Postby Adrmial Seraph » 14 September 2016, 01:47

The_Phalanx wrote:
Ahzek Ahriman wrote:Don't mind him, Seraph always assumes "I'm smart you're stupid, your arguments are invalid" attitude. You're only gonna wrack your nerves arguing with the gnome.


Good thing that Seraph isn't the person that actually needs to be convinced.

@Seraph,

The one and only time you mentioned pairs you mentioned it here;

We're looking at the Stronghold, which has high burst. The stronghold IS a 246 point ship because it has very high dps, long range, comes with asteroid ignoring shields, can be fielded in pairs, has a large ordinance screen.


You'll notice there's not a single mention of Space Station Assault. Furthermore, a ctrl+F through the thread shows the only place Space Station Assault shows up is in your last post. You do mention defender at some point, but in actuality there's no real defender benefit. It's not hard at all to force the ship out of an asteroid field -- hiding a Stronghold in an asteroid isn't some magical advantage, its more of a liability since it becomes very obvious where your ship is. Enjoy endless torps and Nova Cannons.


I mentioned 2 strongholds as ONE point. ONE. I clarified in an earlier post about it being in relation specifically to space station assault.

You are one of those people who can't see the forest from the trees.

Please don't respond, you won't be getting any more attention from me.

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Ahzek Ahriman
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Re: Stronghold might be too good for it's point cost.

Postby Ahzek Ahriman » 14 September 2016, 02:30

Adrmial Seraph wrote:
The_Phalanx wrote:
Ahzek Ahriman wrote:Don't mind him, Seraph always assumes "I'm smart you're stupid, your arguments are invalid" attitude. You're only gonna wrack your nerves arguing with the gnome.


Good thing that Seraph isn't the person that actually needs to be convinced.

@Seraph,

The one and only time you mentioned pairs you mentioned it here;

We're looking at the Stronghold, which has high burst. The stronghold IS a 246 point ship because it has very high dps, long range, comes with asteroid ignoring shields, can be fielded in pairs, has a large ordinance screen.


You'll notice there's not a single mention of Space Station Assault. Furthermore, a ctrl+F through the thread shows the only place Space Station Assault shows up is in your last post. You do mention defender at some point, but in actuality there's no real defender benefit. It's not hard at all to force the ship out of an asteroid field -- hiding a Stronghold in an asteroid isn't some magical advantage, its more of a liability since it becomes very obvious where your ship is. Enjoy endless torps and Nova Cannons.


I mentioned 2 strongholds as ONE point. ONE. I clarified in an earlier post about it being in relation specifically to space station assault.

You are one of those people who can't see the forest from the trees.

Please don't respond, you won't be getting any more attention from me.


Nobody understands you, oh how poor you are. As I said, you are incapable of leading any sort of logical conversation because the moment someone disagrees with you, your ass starts to hurt. Just leave and stop responding altogether, to anything.
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The_Phalanx
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Re: Stronghold might be too good for it's point cost.

Postby The_Phalanx » 14 September 2016, 03:19

Adrmial Seraph wrote:
The_Phalanx wrote:
Ahzek Ahriman wrote:Don't mind him, Seraph always assumes "I'm smart you're stupid, your arguments are invalid" attitude. You're only gonna wrack your nerves arguing with the gnome.


Good thing that Seraph isn't the person that actually needs to be convinced.

@Seraph,

The one and only time you mentioned pairs you mentioned it here;

We're looking at the Stronghold, which has high burst. The stronghold IS a 246 point ship because it has very high dps, long range, comes with asteroid ignoring shields, can be fielded in pairs, has a large ordinance screen.


You'll notice there's not a single mention of Space Station Assault. Furthermore, a ctrl+F through the thread shows the only place Space Station Assault shows up is in your last post. You do mention defender at some point, but in actuality there's no real defender benefit. It's not hard at all to force the ship out of an asteroid field -- hiding a Stronghold in an asteroid isn't some magical advantage, its more of a liability since it becomes very obvious where your ship is. Enjoy endless torps and Nova Cannons.


I mentioned 2 strongholds as ONE point. ONE. I clarified in an earlier post about it being in relation specifically to space station assault.

You are one of those people who can't see the forest from the trees.

Please don't respond, you won't be getting any more attention from me.


Negative, you never clarified that it was in relation to Space Station Assault. The only post that mentions Space Station Assault other than this one I have quoted is this other post;

But as a last pointer, I only mentioned 2 strongholds in the very specific context of defender on Space Station Assault.


Which again mentions this earlier magical post that doesn't exist that explained 2 Strongholds for Space Station Assault.

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Avlaen
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Re: Stronghold might be too good for it's point cost.

Postby Avlaen » 15 September 2016, 11:23

the strong hold is good but it also has quite big flaws.

First of all it cant HET,its cutting beam while awesome can be clunky to charge and get in range of given that its fairly slow, its also only allowed to equip a single favour, and it cant upgrade its crew so no extra crit chance etc.

and it IS a battleship class htats why its got 4 skills, but it does fall behind other battleships

but you can take 2.

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Kurnous
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Re: Stronghold might be too good for it's point cost.

Postby Kurnous » 15 September 2016, 14:38

I most disagree with the title/OP.

Firstly I understand why during the beta it would feel this way. It comes in at Admiral Level 6 when most are just unlocking their battle cruisers. There was a similar effect with SM when they got their BB (1v1 only) At this point most players have a few ships level 5-6 and most sitting between 2-4...not enough upgrades to compete.

BUT as fleets level up the Stronghold gets left behind and quite badly at that.
1. No Crew is HUGE. I believe at level 10 the 9 points in crew make a ship 10-20% more effective.
2. Only one favour that hardly does anything for it (the Drow) and removing the Mercenary trait - and it costs a lot.

Theoretically in ranked play its is quite a bad ship to invest any renown in, which is a shame as they really need an upgrade or two to shine (range upgrades).

Adrmial Seraph
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Re: Stronghold might be too good for it's point cost.

Postby Adrmial Seraph » 15 September 2016, 19:45

The_Phalanx wrote:
Adrmial Seraph wrote:
The_Phalanx wrote:
Good thing that Seraph isn't the person that actually needs to be convinced.

@Seraph,

The one and only time you mentioned pairs you mentioned it here;



You'll notice there's not a single mention of Space Station Assault. Furthermore, a ctrl+F through the thread shows the only place Space Station Assault shows up is in your last post. You do mention defender at some point, but in actuality there's no real defender benefit. It's not hard at all to force the ship out of an asteroid field -- hiding a Stronghold in an asteroid isn't some magical advantage, its more of a liability since it becomes very obvious where your ship is. Enjoy endless torps and Nova Cannons.


I mentioned 2 strongholds as ONE point. ONE. I clarified in an earlier post about it being in relation specifically to space station assault.

You are one of those people who can't see the forest from the trees.

Please don't respond, you won't be getting any more attention from me.


Negative, you never clarified that it was in relation to Space Station Assault. The only post that mentions Space Station Assault other than this one I have quoted is this other post;

But as a last pointer, I only mentioned 2 strongholds in the very specific context of defender on Space Station Assault.


Which again mentions this earlier magical post that doesn't exist that explained 2 Strongholds for Space Station Assault.


I most certainly did mention it before. I don't care if you believe me or not considering you can't see the forest from the trees and have this weird insatiable need to be right, so take your win. I don't care anymore.

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anguloke
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Re: Stronghold might be too good for it's point cost.

Postby anguloke » 19 September 2016, 06:36

Adrmial Seraph wrote:Good thing we're not looking at the deathdeala and the Retribution. We're looking at the Stronghold, which has high burst. The stronghold IS a 246 point ship because it has very high dps, long range, comes with asteroid ignoring shields, can be fielded in pairs, has a large ordinance screen.

Point value is relative to the supporting fleet too, we can't look at things in a bubble.


So despite showing Retribution has better long range DPS, and better burst by the numbers, you ignore all that ans say Stronghold has more.

And do we even know if supporting fleet is considered in points cost in any ships previously?
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CALiGeR190
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Re: Stronghold might be too good for it's point cost.

Postby CALiGeR190 » 19 September 2016, 10:04

Hasn't Their already been a topic on this?
Anyway, I'll repeat here what I've said about the Stronghold earlier: It's good for the price it has now.
It has high enough damage and durability to be a respectable BB, but comes with crippling range, speed and size limitations. It most definite isn't a ship worth 246 points, that ridiculous, the Retribution at that price outclasses the Stronghold in every respect as a battleship. The fact you can have two even at the current price then becomes meaningless, as you will have too few faster warships to make a flexible and viable fleet. Stronghold is more of a liability to the fleet due to it's cost when it's doubled up.

Still, It's in a good spot at around 217 points, very cheap for a BB so a good supporting fleet can come along but not cheap enough to make more than one of them a particularly effective option.
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Imperator5
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Re: Stronghold might be too good for it's point cost.

Postby Imperator5 » 21 September 2016, 10:54

CALiGeR190 wrote:Hasn't Their already been a topic on this?
Anyway, I'll repeat here what I've said about the Stronghold earlier: It's good for the price it has now.
It has high enough damage and durability to be a respectable BB, but comes with crippling range, speed and size limitations. It most definite isn't a ship worth 246 points, that ridiculous, the Retribution at that price outclasses the Stronghold in every respect as a battleship. The fact you can have two even at the current price then becomes meaningless, as you will have too few faster warships to make a flexible and viable fleet. Stronghold is more of a liability to the fleet due to it's cost when it's doubled up.

Still, It's in a good spot at around 217 points, very cheap for a BB so a good supporting fleet can come along but not cheap enough to make more than one of them a particularly effective option.


This. The short range of it coupled with its slow speed and the carrier ability makes it a defensive backbone for your fleet, but its no Retribution. Honestly its really Dorfy.
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

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