Stronghold might be too good for it's point cost.

General discussion regarding the Tau Empire beta.
Adrmial Seraph
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Stronghold might be too good for it's point cost.

Postby Adrmial Seraph » 13 September 2016, 04:17

Might be worth looking into, it has too much weaponry and too much health for it's point cost, to the point of being more of a BB than the Custodian. Only thing keeping it from being completely over the top is you can only take Water Caste on it adn crew can't be upgraded.

I'd suggest a point increase to 246 points. Enough to justify it's point cost but not enough to make it totally undesirable.

TheGoldenChicken
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Re: Stronghold might be too good for it's point cost.

Postby TheGoldenChicken » 13 September 2016, 05:46

It's fat, it's fat and it doesn't have long range weapons. If you can outrun it and target the tau fleet instead, it will be worth less than the rocks it tries to mine

Adrmial Seraph
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Re: Stronghold might be too good for it's point cost.

Postby Adrmial Seraph » 13 September 2016, 06:02

Tau who field it usually park behind the thing and spam torps/earth caste railgun.

The_Phalanx
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Re: Stronghold might be too good for it's point cost.

Postby The_Phalanx » 13 September 2016, 06:17

Admittedly I haven't used the ship that much. I find the fact that it really needs to have an asteroid field near it to get the most out of it to be more of a liability than an asset. However, I think its important to remember that when it comes to battleships, its one of the slowest and weakest armored battleships in the game. It has the weakest torp spread out of all the battleships and if it doesn't have an asteroid field, it can't use the cutting beam effectively.

I've haven't had much issue deal with the ship. The first time I fought it I was caught off guard, but since then I find that my Protectors can stand up to a Stronghold and win.

Since I don't have much feel for the ship by playing with/against it, I'll do a stat break down. The stats of the ship compared with a Zapp Dethdeala (185 points) and a Retribution (246 points) you get the following;

Stronghold 216 points
9 dps broadside 6k range macros, 12k range lances
7 dps front 9k range macros
3 dps cutting beam 3k range
3 ordnance bays -> 4.5 dps
6 torp spread -> 6 dpds
Max single target dps is front combined with torps and ordnance for 20.5 dps
Combined dps is 38.5 (broadsides + front + torps + ordnance)

Dethdeala 185 points
11 dps broadside 6k gun max range, 12k zapp max range
4 dps front 12k range all zapp
8 torp spread -> 8 dps
+400 hull
-200 shields
75 front armor
Max single target dps is front all zapps combined with torps for 12 dps
Combined dps is 30 (broadsides without zapp + all front zapp + torps)

Retribution 246 points
18 dps broadside 12k range all weapons
3 dps front
8 torps -> 8 dps
+200 hull
faster
75 front armor
Max single target dps is broadside at 18 dps
Combined dps is 41 (broadsides without turrets + front + torps)

Looking at the stats, I think 216 is fine for the Stronghold. It's single target DPS max is better than the Retribution, but only at less than 3k, not mention that single target dps is counting torps and ordnance which can be dodged and shot down respectively. On the other hand, the Retribution's single target max DPS is all guns and all of it 12k max range. The Stronghold is not a 246 point ship.

Comparing the Stronghold to the Dethdeala, at a glance, the Stronghold seems to easily win that contest. Which it should when it costs 30 points extra. But there's a caveat here. Both the Dethdeala and the Stronghold's best single target max DPS is from the front, but again the Dethdeala outranges the Stronghold in this case. Furthermore, when it does get close, the Dethdeala's 75% armor will deflect the majority of the macro battery damage, and the Dethdeala can inflict more torp damage on the Stronghold. The Stronghold however will not be able to easily deflect the Dethdeala's Zapp damage. The Stronghold's post 3k DPS is only 17.5 of which 11.5 is none-torp DPS. Only 25% of it will not be deflected by, so it drops to 2.875 effective dps which is less than the 3 effective dps of the Dethdeala's Zapp. Compare the differences of Macro and Lance battery accuracy at range, and the Stronghold's dps continues to fall while the Dethdeala's stays constant. But that's not the last of it; Ramming. The Dethdeala has more Health and more Front Armor meaning that it can and it will hit the Stronghold for a lot more damage than it will take from ramming it. Finally, favors; the Stronghold is forced to take Water Caste and is pretty lackluster without the favor. The Dethdeala on the other hand has a full range of Ork favors it can choose from, which all in some way or another increase its DPS further.

Adrmial Seraph
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Re: Stronghold might be too good for it's point cost.

Postby Adrmial Seraph » 13 September 2016, 20:11

The_Phalanx wrote:Admittedly I haven't used the ship that much. I find the fact that it really needs to have an asteroid field near it to get the most out of it to be more of a liability than an asset. However, I think its important to remember that when it comes to battleships, its one of the slowest and weakest armored battleships in the game. It has the weakest torp spread out of all the battleships and if it doesn't have an asteroid field, it can't use the cutting beam effectively.

I've haven't had much issue deal with the ship. The first time I fought it I was caught off guard, but since then I find that my Protectors can stand up to a Stronghold and win.

Since I don't have much feel for the ship by playing with/against it, I'll do a stat break down. The stats of the ship compared with a Zapp Dethdeala (185 points) and a Retribution (246 points) you get the following;

Stronghold 216 points
9 dps broadside 6k range macros, 12k range lances
7 dps front 9k range macros
3 dps cutting beam 3k range
3 ordnance bays -> 4.5 dps
6 torp spread -> 6 dpds
Max single target dps is front combined with torps and ordnance for 20.5 dps
Combined dps is 38.5 (broadsides + front + torps + ordnance)

Dethdeala 185 points
11 dps broadside 6k gun max range, 12k zapp max range
4 dps front 12k range all zapp
8 torp spread -> 8 dps
+400 hull
-200 shields
75 front armor
Max single target dps is front all zapps combined with torps for 12 dps
Combined dps is 30 (broadsides without zapp + all front zapp + torps)

Retribution 246 points
18 dps broadside 12k range all weapons
3 dps front
8 torps -> 8 dps
+200 hull
faster
75 front armor
Max single target dps is broadside at 18 dps
Combined dps is 41 (broadsides without turrets + front + torps)

Looking at the stats, I think 216 is fine for the Stronghold. It's single target DPS max is better than the Retribution, but only at less than 3k, not mention that single target dps is counting torps and ordnance which can be dodged and shot down respectively. On the other hand, the Retribution's single target max DPS is all guns and all of it 12k max range. The Stronghold is not a 246 point ship.

Comparing the Stronghold to the Dethdeala, at a glance, the Stronghold seems to easily win that contest. Which it should when it costs 30 points extra. But there's a caveat here. Both the Dethdeala and the Stronghold's best single target max DPS is from the front, but again the Dethdeala outranges the Stronghold in this case. Furthermore, when it does get close, the Dethdeala's 75% armor will deflect the majority of the macro battery damage, and the Dethdeala can inflict more torp damage on the Stronghold. The Stronghold however will not be able to easily deflect the Dethdeala's Zapp damage. The Stronghold's post 3k DPS is only 17.5 of which 11.5 is none-torp DPS. Only 25% of it will not be deflected by, so it drops to 2.875 effective dps which is less than the 3 effective dps of the Dethdeala's Zapp. Compare the differences of Macro and Lance battery accuracy at range, and the Stronghold's dps continues to fall while the Dethdeala's stays constant. But that's not the last of it; Ramming. The Dethdeala has more Health and more Front Armor meaning that it can and it will hit the Stronghold for a lot more damage than it will take from ramming it. Finally, favors; the Stronghold is forced to take Water Caste and is pretty lackluster without the favor. The Dethdeala on the other hand has a full range of Ork favors it can choose from, which all in some way or another increase its DPS further.


I don't think we should use dps for these kinds of calcs because these ships do high burst damage. Burst damage does not translate into dps very well.

The_Phalanx
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Re: Stronghold might be too good for it's point cost.

Postby The_Phalanx » 13 September 2016, 20:31

Switching to DPS to Burst really doesn't change much here. The Dethdeala still has the worst burst, but still has considerable burst from Zapp, Torps, and Ramming. The Retribution still has the best burst because 3x 4 Plasma Macro Batteries from each Broadside + Turrets is still better than the Burst from the Stronghold. The Stronghold is not a 246 point ship.

Adrmial Seraph
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Re: Stronghold might be too good for it's point cost.

Postby Adrmial Seraph » 13 September 2016, 20:45

The_Phalanx wrote:Switching to DPS to Burst really doesn't change much here. The Dethdeala still has the worst burst, but still has considerable burst from Zapp, Torps, and Ramming. The Retribution still has the best burst because 3x 4 Plasma Macro Batteries from each Broadside + Turrets is still better than the Burst from the Stronghold. The Stronghold is not a 246 point ship.


Good thing we're not looking at the deathdeala and the Retribution. We're looking at the Stronghold, which has high burst. The stronghold IS a 246 point ship because it has very high dps, long range, comes with asteroid ignoring shields, can be fielded in pairs, has a large ordinance screen.

Point value is relative to the supporting fleet too, we can't look at things in a bubble.

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MadDemiurg
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Re: Stronghold might be too good for it's point cost.

Postby MadDemiurg » 13 September 2016, 20:51

It could've been too good if it could level up crew. As it stands, it has weaker ordnance and almost two times less crits than a max level ship (if you max pilots and gunner, and theres still room for +1 maxed crew member like +9 troops). It's a massive weakness. It also effectively loses 1/2 of a favour bonus to negate it's mercenary trait and is limited to 1 favour (which is far from the best one, although air caste strongholds would be quite ridiculous) It's pretty good in persistent mode when you just get it though, because no one has upgrades and even a BB at that point. For ranked/max level I'd even argue that it's UP, although I hope Demiurg get 75 prow armour on release in which case it will be more or less fine. I still think neither kroot spere nor stronghold should cost as much as BB to upgrade.

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Imperator5
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Re: Stronghold might be too good for it's point cost.

Postby Imperator5 » 13 September 2016, 20:55

MadDemiurg wrote:It could've been too good if it could level up crew. As it stands, it has weaker ordnance and almost two times less crits than a max level ship (if you max pilots and gunner, and theres still room for +1 maxed crew member like +9 troops). It's a massive weakness. It also effectively loses 1/2 of a favour bonus to negate it's mercenary trait and is limited to 1 favour (which is far from the best one, although air caste strongholds would be quite ridiculous) It's pretty good in persistent mode when you just get it though, because no one has upgrades and even a BB at that point. For ranked/max level I'd even argue that it's UP, although I hope Demiurg get 75 prow armour on release in which case it will be more or less fine. I still think neither kroot spere nor stronghold should cost as much as BB to upgrade.


Agreed and the Sphere definatly should not. Its not BB level even if it moved normally.
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

Please help me change skirmish to be customisable. Its very important for PVE players.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=515 Mod idea.

The_Phalanx
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Re: Stronghold might be too good for it's point cost.

Postby The_Phalanx » 13 September 2016, 21:24

Adrmial Seraph wrote:
The_Phalanx wrote:Switching to DPS to Burst really doesn't change much here. The Dethdeala still has the worst burst, but still has considerable burst from Zapp, Torps, and Ramming. The Retribution still has the best burst because 3x 4 Plasma Macro Batteries from each Broadside + Turrets is still better than the Burst from the Stronghold. The Stronghold is not a 246 point ship.


Good thing we're not looking at the deathdeala and the Retribution. We're looking at the Stronghold, which has high burst. The stronghold IS a 246 point ship because it has very high dps, long range, comes with asteroid ignoring shields, can be fielded in pairs, has a large ordinance screen.

Point value is relative to the supporting fleet too, we can't look at things in a bubble.


You can move the goalposts all you want with this discussion, but I've already quantified why the ship is not a 246 point cost ship. It does not have the stats for that kind of point cost nor does it somehow syngerize better with other ships in the Tau fleet than the Retribution or Dethdeala do with their own fleets that somehow makes the Stronghold need to have the same point cost of a Retribution. I can easily go through every other battleship in the game and show you why the Stronghold is at the 216 point cost -- spoiler its because its weaker than those battleships. It is only stronger than the Dethdeala and not by much.


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