Thoughts on Tau

General discussion regarding the Tau Empire beta.
The_Phalanx
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Re: Thoughts on Tau

Postby The_Phalanx » 12 September 2016, 22:16

Sagranda wrote:nerf the experimental railgun and you make it basically worthless as a "single weapon", since it is only strong when spammed


That's not a constructive comment in the slightest. The Railgun in its current form is pure cheese. There's absolutely zero counterplay. At least with Nova Cannons there's a chance the shot itself will miss, otherwise you still have a good chance of dodging it through special maneuvers. Furthermore, Nova Cannons have to chew through your shields first before hitting your armor.

On the other hand, the Railgun gets to go straight through your shields, its actually not that hard to hit multiple ships with it if you wait until the full engagement starts, and missing with it is all but impossible -- which makes it hilarious when someone does actually miss. Most things are cheesy when spammed, but that doesn't change the fact that even a single railgun is powerful. It's a free 100 points of damage done to every ship it hits with absolutely zero counterplay.

I've suggested two different ways to change how the Railgun works, support one or the other or propose your own way to fix it, but don't waste your own time with a useless single line response.

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Re: Thoughts on Tau

Postby LittleBlueMan » 12 September 2016, 23:47

Phalanx you have a lot of very great points!

I'd like to comment on the Demiurg/Protector match up. First, the devs have neglected to include the armored prow of the Demiurg ships. Second, the Demiurg ships have very high dps, something that falls off versus armored prows and armored shields of the protector. The Demiurg Stronghold is actually quite strong atm, but it's weaknesses are highlighted vs the protector. Especially with the bonkers turret upgrade and lack of armored prow (Tindalos pls).

Also re: your comment on Eldar. It does seem like the Tau batteries do something special to Eldar. Eldar ships face an existential threat just being in 9k range from Tau protectors, even with full holofields. A Protector can destroy an Eldar battlecruiser in an astonishingly short amount of time. If there is a protector on the board, all enemies must make it a priority target. Personally I'd reduce the DPS of the Protector class by 2 or 3, and completely remove the damaging turrets upgrade. This game is already too silly about ease of ramming, having such an easy DPS addition with these turrets is very strong, easy to use, and IMO a little silly thematically.

The_Phalanx
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Re: Thoughts on Tau

Postby The_Phalanx » 13 September 2016, 01:09

Do the Stronghold and Bastion only have 50 front armor? It's not something I've looked for, so if its only 50 that does sound like an oversight.

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Sagranda
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Re: Thoughts on Tau

Postby Sagranda » 13 September 2016, 09:14

The_Phalanx wrote:
Sagranda wrote:nerf the experimental railgun and you make it basically worthless as a "single weapon", since it is only strong when spammed


That's not a constructive comment in the slightest. The Railgun in its current form is pure cheese. There's absolutely zero counterplay. At least with Nova Cannons there's a chance the shot itself will miss, otherwise you still have a good chance of dodging it through special maneuvers. Furthermore, Nova Cannons have to chew through your shields first before hitting your armor.

On the other hand, the Railgun gets to go straight through your shields, its actually not that hard to hit multiple ships with it if you wait until the full engagement starts, and missing with it is all but impossible -- which makes it hilarious when someone does actually miss. Most things are cheesy when spammed, but that doesn't change the fact that even a single railgun is powerful. It's a free 100 points of damage done to every ship it hits with absolutely zero counterplay.


You won't hit multiple targets against a competent player that easy, unless he makes a mistake.

And you are comparing a weapon that deals AoE damage against a weapon that deals its damage in a straight path when it comes to applying damage, not a great plan.

I've suggested two different ways to change how the Railgun works, support one or the other or propose your own way to fix it, but don't waste your own time with a useless single line response.


I decide on my own if my time is wasted or not.
Btw, given the history of the game it is way more wasted time to bring constructive criticism and suggestions when it comes to balance.


To not ignore Shields would make a single Railgun way too weak at longer ranges thanks to ships shield regen and/or the Void Transfer (?) Skill and rather meh at close range, thanks to the cooldown.

The delay, marker and increased width is something one could usually work with, but it needs good tweaking or else it won't change anything or even become useless. Thing is that in the Hands of Tindalos it would more likely result in another useless weapon, unless someone forces reasonable numbers onto them.
Last edited by Sagranda on 13 September 2016, 10:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Ravensburg
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Re: Thoughts on Tau

Postby Ravensburg » 13 September 2016, 09:49

The_Phalanx wrote:Do the Stronghold and Bastion only have 50 front armor? It's not something I've looked for, so if its only 50 that does sound like an oversight.


It is clearly a mistake. Demiurg are supposed to have prow heavy armor.

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Ravensburg

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Imperator5
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Re: Thoughts on Tau

Postby Imperator5 » 13 September 2016, 10:37

Ravensburg wrote:
The_Phalanx wrote:Do the Stronghold and Bastion only have 50 front armor? It's not something I've looked for, so if its only 50 that does sound like an oversight.


It is clearly a mistake. Demiurg are supposed to have prow heavy armor.

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Ravensburg


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I think its a good change, for the Deimurg ships got so little range that they need a bit of extra armour while they get into position.
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The_Phalanx
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Re: Thoughts on Tau

Postby The_Phalanx » 13 September 2016, 16:05

Sagranda wrote:
The_Phalanx wrote:
Sagranda wrote:nerf the experimental railgun and you make it basically worthless as a "single weapon", since it is only strong when spammed


That's not a constructive comment in the slightest. The Railgun in its current form is pure cheese. There's absolutely zero counterplay. At least with Nova Cannons there's a chance the shot itself will miss, otherwise you still have a good chance of dodging it through special maneuvers. Furthermore, Nova Cannons have to chew through your shields first before hitting your armor.

On the other hand, the Railgun gets to go straight through your shields, its actually not that hard to hit multiple ships with it if you wait until the full engagement starts, and missing with it is all but impossible -- which makes it hilarious when someone does actually miss. Most things are cheesy when spammed, but that doesn't change the fact that even a single railgun is powerful. It's a free 100 points of damage done to every ship it hits with absolutely zero counterplay.


You won't hit multiple targets against a competent player that easy, unless he makes a mistake.

And you are comparing a weapon that deals AoE damage against a weapon that deals its damage in a straight path when it comes to applying damage, not a great plan.


Except I can use that same argument that you won't hit multiple ships with a Nova Cannon against a competent player because he won't let his ships get that close together. On the other hand, since the Railgun shoots in a line over 25k, its not hard to line up a shot that will hit 2 more ships. Especially when the main engagement starts and people start clumping up again to focus fire. I'll admit that its harder to do against non-Tau players, but its really easy to do it against Tau and Tau aren't the only ones I've done it too.

Considering that Tau really lack any options of extra damage against shields that most other races have change Railguns to no longer bypass Shields but now do 100% extra damage or even 150% to shields but will not bleed through shields if the Railgun shot takes out all shields.

3 Railgun shots will still cripple Light Cruisers and against bigger targets the shield damage is all but guaranteed unlike Disruption Bombs where good players can get out of especially since Tau don't have Stasis Fields.

I've suggested two different ways to change how the Railgun works, support one or the other or propose your own way to fix it, but don't waste your own time with a useless single line response.


I decide on my own if my time is wasted or not.
Btw, given the history of the game it is way more wasted time to bring constructive criticism and suggestions when it comes to balance.


To not ignore Shields would make a single Railgun way too weak at longer ranges thanks to ships shield regen and/or the Void Transfer (?) Skill and rather meh at close range, thanks to the cooldown.

The delay, marker and increased width is something one could usually work with, but it needs good tweaking or else it won't change anything or even become useless. Thing is that in the Hands of Tindalos it would more likely result in another useless weapon, unless someone forces reasonable numbers onto them.


The Planet Killer beam weapon from the campaign works pretty much exactly the way I'd like to see the Railguns get changed. So that's proof that Tindalos has already done something like this before and therefore reusing that wouldn't take as much effort as making something from scratch. As for tweaking, well that's why we have this Beta, isn't it?

Ire
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Re: Thoughts on Tau

Postby Ire » 13 September 2016, 16:31

Agree with op on most points (as he's a go to coop buddy and we've discussed these points quite a bit).

I feel like the mantas are only OP with the 2nd hp upgrade. Although my opinion of them is mitigated once finding out how wrong the tooltip for them was.

Totally agree with favors being planets. It even makes sense for the paint jobs - paint scheme was always based on planet of origion (tan - tau, red -viorla, white sa'cea etc) and would be a more fluffy naming scheme.

Tau firepower and forward deflectors seem to arguably benifit more from the games ability to stop without penalty unlike TT. Maybe that's why they feel shooter than I expected.

Torps tbh feel weak to me. They actually feel like some.of the weakest torps in the game.

Wardens suck. Buff them. There has never been a game where I was thinking to myself "gee, I wish I had a trio of wardens instead of this emissary/warsphere ..." Perhaps bump up the Lance's from .5 dps to 1 dps and/or add another 100hp hull. Also make them optional not manditory. Atm they are my least favorite escort for tau.

Ex rail gun as op said - indicator and scrap the shield pen. Still very attractive.

Air caste I'm not sure is all that op. It's really good but I think it compaires decently to the other options - and without that speed you get 20 minute chaos kite matches.

I also feel like SMS is interesting but maybe a bit much - perhaps .5 dps per turret instead of 1?

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Imperator5
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Re: Thoughts on Tau

Postby Imperator5 » 13 September 2016, 18:47

Their torps got weaker burst but faster recharge. DPS is same as of others. Basically they pay for the homing with their lacklustre burst potential.
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Please help me change skirmish to be customisable. Its very important for PVE players.

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Ire
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Re: Thoughts on Tau

Postby Ire » 13 September 2016, 21:28

Except they are also shooting subpar amounts of torps as well - 3 on light cruiser and 5 on cruiser (where 4/6 is normal)

They are also taking longer to begin to track than SM (3km vs 500m) and have no alternate torp type.

I'm not saying they are terrible, but as tau torps are supposed to be scary, I don't feel like they are there. Maybe if they could target blips instead of needing full detection (giving the tau back some sort of long range punch) or some other gimmick I'd be happier.


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