Marker+Extra Turrets+Seeker=op Messenger spam.

General discussion regarding the Tau Empire beta.
Beernchips
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Re: Marker+Extra Turrets+Seeker=op Messenger spam.

Postby Beernchips » 12 September 2016, 18:29

Upgrades/favors/skills should be things that help you customize your ships and give strategic options not double your DPS.

An upgrade that give between 9 and 18 raw dps (ok 1.5k range) on capital ships is not impar to any other upgrade in game especially when it can synergize really hard with other upgrades/favors
The old AP ammo was reaching these dps increase numbers with Retribution using double broadsides vs 75 armor and it was OP

To develop :
Tau are designed to be a faction fighting prow on at 6-9k and trying to kill before they get reached. WIth seeker missile, you have no reason to stay at range because going near will increase accuracy of railguns (which are the main dps of Tau) and when you reach the critical range, you will have peak firepower with turrets. So Tau are just a rush prow on faction.
I think some upgrades could give complement dps to your main dps sources but not totally turn the design of a faction into something else
Last edited by Beernchips on 12 September 2016, 18:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Marker+Extra Turrets+Seeker=op Messenger spam.

Postby Adrmial Seraph » 12 September 2016, 18:43

It's not a problem on line ships, you can't have enough turrets to gib things and Tau aren't exactly amazing @ 3k range. It's only a problem on messengers because messenger point cost is so cheap AND they have 6 turrets baseline.

Do the math, the only way you can squeeze in mass seeker spam is by mass messenger. Everything else stays fairly reasonable, given the 3k range, the point cost of other ships and their turret count.

All that needs to happen is Messengers need to start with 3 turrets instead of 6, that's a 33% damage reduction after Extra Turrets is added and keeps it potent but not utterly game breaking. If this proves to be a problem with Line Ships as well I'd look at how many of these builds are using extra turrets. If most of the dominant builds are then just replace Extra Turrets with something else for Tau, like a higher % to intercept ordinance.

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Re: Marker+Extra Turrets+Seeker=op Messenger spam.

Postby MadDemiurg » 12 September 2016, 18:50

Adrmial Seraph wrote:It's not a problem on line ships, you can't have enough turrets to gib things and Tau aren't exactly amazing @ 3k range. It's only a problem on messengers because messenger point cost is so cheap AND they have 6 turrets baseline.

Do the math, the only way you can squeeze in mass seeker spam is by mass messenger. Everything else stays fairly reasonable, given the 3k range, the point cost of other ships and their turret count.

All that needs to happen is Messengers need to start with 3 turrets instead of 6, that's a 33% damage reduction after Extra Turrets is added and keeps it potent but not utterly game breaking. If this proves to be a problem with Line Ships as well I'd look at how many of these builds are using extra turrets. If most of the dominant builds are then just replace Extra Turrets with something else for Tau, like a higher % to intercept ordinance.


Maybe just make seeker missiles not available on escorts? I've tried messenger spam in practice though, it's still not a strong build cause they die very fast and it doesn't look like they instagib a ship even if it's surrounded by 5 of them. Still, I'd rather have seekers blocked on them to avoid constant "messenger spam is OP" complaints. It's not even a good build for them in my book anyway, they are better used as scouts or support ships to grant anti ordnance rerolls, not as a spammable combat escort.

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Re: Marker+Extra Turrets+Seeker=op Messenger spam.

Postby CALiGeR190 » 12 September 2016, 18:51

Adrmial Seraph wrote:It's not a problem on line ships, you can't have enough turrets to gib things and Tau aren't exactly amazing @ 3k range. It's only a problem on messengers because messenger point cost is so cheap AND they have 6 turrets baseline.

Do the math, the only way you can squeeze in mass seeker spam is by mass messenger. Everything else stays fairly reasonable, given the 3k range, the point cost of other ships and their turret count.

All that needs to happen is Messengers need to start with 3 turrets instead of 6, that's a 33% damage reduction after Extra Turrets is added and keeps it potent but not utterly game breaking. If this proves to be a problem with Line Ships as well I'd look at how many of these builds are using extra turrets. If most of the dominant builds are then just replace Extra Turrets with something else for Tau, like a higher % to intercept ordinance.

The messenger spam isn't so bad. Other than the turrets it has an insignificant armament, and it's only 100 shield and 100 HP to chew through without having to worry about armour.

I use the tactic on the Dhow though, half the turrets but a much tougher (200 sheild and 200 health and 50 armour instead of 25) and significantly greater damage (12 vs 4 per cannon).
Much more valuable generally, perfect for protecting the capitals and filling the role all escorts should.
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Re: Marker+Extra Turrets+Seeker=op Messenger spam.

Postby Adrmial Seraph » 12 September 2016, 18:55

MadDemiurg wrote:
Adrmial Seraph wrote:It's not a problem on line ships, you can't have enough turrets to gib things and Tau aren't exactly amazing @ 3k range. It's only a problem on messengers because messenger point cost is so cheap AND they have 6 turrets baseline.

Do the math, the only way you can squeeze in mass seeker spam is by mass messenger. Everything else stays fairly reasonable, given the 3k range, the point cost of other ships and their turret count.

All that needs to happen is Messengers need to start with 3 turrets instead of 6, that's a 33% damage reduction after Extra Turrets is added and keeps it potent but not utterly game breaking. If this proves to be a problem with Line Ships as well I'd look at how many of these builds are using extra turrets. If most of the dominant builds are then just replace Extra Turrets with something else for Tau, like a higher % to intercept ordinance.


Maybe just make seeker missiles not available on escorts? I've tried messenger spam in practice though, it's still not a strong build cause they die very fast and it doesn't look like they instagib a ship even if it's surrounded by 5 of them. Still, I'd rather have seekers blocked on them to avoid constant "messenger spam is OP" complaints. It's not even a good build for them in my book anyway, they are better used as scouts or support ships to grant anti ordnance rerolls, not as a spammable combat escort.


Messenger spam requires some critical thinking, you need to choose your target properly and you need to have your ships all ahead full at the last second and continue a little past the opponent as they're all spread out in a line to mitigate ramming. Once your formation is a little past the enemy line, you tell everyone to attack a single target and start boosting individual ships into range with brace activated and liberal use of repair used.

Yes, you will lose most, if not all your Escorts but you'll inflict such high damage to the opponent that you 2 line ships that enter the battle can mop up whatever is left, if anything is left.

It's definitely not a tell all messengers to attack a single target, go grab a coffee type strategy. It needs babysitting.

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Re: Marker+Extra Turrets+Seeker=op Messenger spam.

Postby Adrmial Seraph » 12 September 2016, 19:00

CALiGeR190 wrote:
Adrmial Seraph wrote:It's not a problem on line ships, you can't have enough turrets to gib things and Tau aren't exactly amazing @ 3k range. It's only a problem on messengers because messenger point cost is so cheap AND they have 6 turrets baseline.

Do the math, the only way you can squeeze in mass seeker spam is by mass messenger. Everything else stays fairly reasonable, given the 3k range, the point cost of other ships and their turret count.

All that needs to happen is Messengers need to start with 3 turrets instead of 6, that's a 33% damage reduction after Extra Turrets is added and keeps it potent but not utterly game breaking. If this proves to be a problem with Line Ships as well I'd look at how many of these builds are using extra turrets. If most of the dominant builds are then just replace Extra Turrets with something else for Tau, like a higher % to intercept ordinance.

The messenger spam isn't so bad. Other than the turrets it has an insignificant armament, and it's only 100 shield and 100 HP to chew through without having to worry about armour.

I use the tactic on the Dhow though, half the turrets but a much tougher (200 sheild and 200 health and 50 armour instead of 25) and significantly greater damage (12 vs 4 per cannon).
Much more valuable generally, perfect for protecting the capitals and filling the role all escorts should.


I get your point but I don't agree with it because you're significantly reducing your seeker dps by using Dhows and Dhow railguns do not make up for the lost dps. Sure they last a bit longer but the idea behind messenger spam is to use expendable ships to maul the opponent's fleet, you expect to lose all your messengers to kill most of the opponent's fleet. Your 2 line ships close in as this happens and pick off low hull targets so your remaining messengers can get into range of another target faster.

You're trying to use Seeker as a supplement, it's intended use, rather than a main damage dealer. Messenger spam is all about using seeker spam as the damage dealer.

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Re: Marker+Extra Turrets+Seeker=op Messenger spam.

Postby CALiGeR190 » 12 September 2016, 20:35

Adrmial Seraph wrote:I get your point but I don't agree with it because you're significantly reducing your seeker dps by using Dhows and Dhow railguns do not make up for the lost dps. Sure they last a bit longer but the idea behind messenger spam is to use expendable ships to maul the opponent's fleet, you expect to lose all your messengers to kill most of the opponent's fleet. Your 2 line ships close in as this happens and pick off low hull targets so your remaining messengers can get into range of another target faster.

You're trying to use Seeker as a supplement, it's intended use, rather than a main damage dealer. Messenger spam is all about using seeker spam as the damage dealer.

Then we agree to disagree.
Doubling the HP and sheild doubles the DPS value of the seekers since it can apply it's DPS over double the duration of time. The improved railguns just adding to that.

Fair enough they can chase targets more effectively but ANY AoE or effective ramming instantly ruins the tactic completely while the Dhow can last long enough to get at least something apretiable done.
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Re: Marker+Extra Turrets+Seeker=op Messenger spam.

Postby Adrmial Seraph » 12 September 2016, 20:44

CALiGeR190 wrote:
Adrmial Seraph wrote:I get your point but I don't agree with it because you're significantly reducing your seeker dps by using Dhows and Dhow railguns do not make up for the lost dps. Sure they last a bit longer but the idea behind messenger spam is to use expendable ships to maul the opponent's fleet, you expect to lose all your messengers to kill most of the opponent's fleet. Your 2 line ships close in as this happens and pick off low hull targets so your remaining messengers can get into range of another target faster.

You're trying to use Seeker as a supplement, it's intended use, rather than a main damage dealer. Messenger spam is all about using seeker spam as the damage dealer.

Then we agree to disagree.
Doubling the HP and sheild doubles the DPS value of the seekers since it can apply it's DPS over double the duration of time. The improved railguns just adding to that.

Fair enough they can chase targets more effectively but ANY AoE or effective ramming instantly ruins the tactic completely while the Dhow can last long enough to get at least something apretiable done.


Agree to disagree is a nice sentiment...but when math proves your point totally wrong...I don't accept that.
You're not accounting for several variables such as point cost, the amount of turrets and so forth.

Doubling the shield and hull value only theoretically increases the damage two fold, just like how the total dps of messenger seeker spam is only theoretical because it's highly unlikely that you'll get 12 Messengers within 3k of 1 ship. much like it's highly unlikely that your Dhow will survive twice as long (less ships means more concentrated firing arcs).

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Re: Marker+Extra Turrets+Seeker=op Messenger spam.

Postby CALiGeR190 » 12 September 2016, 20:56

Adrmial Seraph wrote:
CALiGeR190 wrote:
Adrmial Seraph wrote:I get your point but I don't agree with it because you're significantly reducing your seeker dps by using Dhows and Dhow railguns do not make up for the lost dps. Sure they last a bit longer but the idea behind messenger spam is to use expendable ships to maul the opponent's fleet, you expect to lose all your messengers to kill most of the opponent's fleet. Your 2 line ships close in as this happens and pick off low hull targets so your remaining messengers can get into range of another target faster.

You're trying to use Seeker as a supplement, it's intended use, rather than a main damage dealer. Messenger spam is all about using seeker spam as the damage dealer.

Then we agree to disagree.
Doubling the HP and sheild doubles the DPS value of the seekers since it can apply it's DPS over double the duration of time. The improved railguns just adding to that.

Fair enough they can chase targets more effectively but ANY AoE or effective ramming instantly ruins the tactic completely while the Dhow can last long enough to get at least something apretiable done.


Agree to disagree is a nice sentiment...but when math proves your point totally wrong...I don't accept that.
You're not accounting for several variables such as point cost, the amount of turrets and so forth.

Doubling the shield and hull value only theoretically increases the damage two fold, just like how the total dps of messenger seeker spam is only theoretical because it's highly unlikely that you'll get 12 Messengers within 3k of 1 ship.

We seem to have a misunderstanding here, I'm comparing one against the other on an individual basis, not as a fleet.

I'm trying to argue with that a Dhow is doubly likely to get within 3K range, has (nearly) double the potential with seekers and a much superior base armament. I wasn't trying to argue for a pure Dhow build in that fashion, like I said, I was talking on an individual basis.

Optimally you can get 7 Dhows, in the same scenario you can manage about double that in Messengers. In that specific scenario it's very roughly even, but in most cases I concede that the numbers advantage is too great to recomend a Dhow seeker build.

Although it is worth pointing out that Dhows ARE more reliably going to do damage against a fleet.
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Re: Marker+Extra Turrets+Seeker=op Messenger spam.

Postby Adrmial Seraph » 12 September 2016, 21:09

CALiGeR190 wrote:
Adrmial Seraph wrote:
CALiGeR190 wrote:Then we agree to disagree.
Doubling the HP and sheild doubles the DPS value of the seekers since it can apply it's DPS over double the duration of time. The improved railguns just adding to that.

Fair enough they can chase targets more effectively but ANY AoE or effective ramming instantly ruins the tactic completely while the Dhow can last long enough to get at least something apretiable done.


Agree to disagree is a nice sentiment...but when math proves your point totally wrong...I don't accept that.
You're not accounting for several variables such as point cost, the amount of turrets and so forth.

Doubling the shield and hull value only theoretically increases the damage two fold, just like how the total dps of messenger seeker spam is only theoretical because it's highly unlikely that you'll get 12 Messengers within 3k of 1 ship.

We seem to have a misunderstanding here, I'm comparing one against the other on an individual basis, not as a fleet.

I'm trying to argue with that a Dhow is doubly likely to get within 3K range, has (nearly) double the potential with seekers and a much superior base armament. I wasn't trying to argue for a pure Dhow build in that fashion, like I said, I was talking on an individual basis.

Optimally you can get 7 Dhows, in the same scenario you can manage about double that in Messengers. In that specific scenario it's very roughly even, but in most cases I concede that the numbers advantage is too great to recomend a Dhow seeker build.

Although it is worth pointing out that Dhows ARE more reliably going to do damage against a fleet.


Why compare on an individual basis though? You'd never send 1 messengers against a ship, same with the Dhow. Sending in 1 obfuscates the intended purpose of comparing them within the context of seeker spam. A singe Escort with seekers is meh, it's only when the damage starts stacking that we see alarming results.


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