Marker+Extra Turrets+Seeker=op Messenger spam.

General discussion regarding the Tau Empire beta.
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Ravensburg
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Re: Marker+Extra Turrets+Seeker=op Messenger spam.

Postby Ravensburg » 12 September 2016, 15:55

Just checked, and it appears the tooltips does not specify that damages from the "seeker missiles" upgrade are mitigate by armor which is the case. Also the range increase set the range TO 3K.

Do you still think it's OP?

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Re: Marker+Extra Turrets+Seeker=op Messenger spam.

Postby CALiGeR190 » 12 September 2016, 16:04

Ravensburg wrote:Just checked, and it appears the tooltips does not specify that damages from the "seeker missiles" upgrade are mitigate by armor which is the case. Also the range increase set the range TO 3K.

Do you still think it's OP?

Ravensburg

The raw damage output (assuming the damage is 1dps per turret) is still very high on some ships, but I suspected this was the case since the DPS numbers didn't add up with how they performed.

I would prefer if it was something like a set amount of damage, like 4 or 8 (dependant on health), and its reduces by 1 for each 100 hp lost. This way Tau are slightly more forced to fight at long range, like they should. Adding some kind of accuracy modifier to go with the range upgrades would also be a great addition to this effect.
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Re: Marker+Extra Turrets+Seeker=op Messenger spam.

Postby Beernchips » 12 September 2016, 16:30

It is hard to say if it is op until we know :
Accuracy of seeker turrets? (35% like vs ordnances or they use the Tau accuracy?)
Is it DPS vs all ships in range or is it split?
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Re: Marker+Extra Turrets+Seeker=op Messenger spam.

Postby Ravensburg » 12 September 2016, 16:35

Beernchips wrote:It is hard to say if it is op until we know :
Accuracy of seeker turrets? (35% like vs ordnances or they use the Tau accuracy?)
Is it DPS vs all ships in range or is it split?


It does not use accuracy it's direct damages.

DPS is not split between ships, its full DPS against every ship.

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Re: Marker+Extra Turrets+Seeker=op Messenger spam.

Postby Bosie » 12 September 2016, 16:50

Ravensburg wrote:
Beernchips wrote:It is hard to say if it is op until we know :
Accuracy of seeker turrets? (35% like vs ordnances or they use the Tau accuracy?)
Is it DPS vs all ships in range or is it split?


It does not use accuracy it's direct damages.

DPS is not split between ships, its full DPS against every ship.

Ravensburg


Mark of Nurgle caused 1 DPS to all ships for each ship that had it. It was changed to stop it stacking. That's a favor that costs from 200 to 1,600 points. This is 2 upgrades that do 1 DPS per turret to ALL targets in range. Man it's evil as fuck, and not in a good way.
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Re: Marker+Extra Turrets+Seeker=op Messenger spam.

Postby Beernchips » 12 September 2016, 16:52

So with just an upgrade it is 9 dps for a LC mitigated by armor and scaling with the number of ennemies in range. I am not sure the old AP upgrade was giving that much amount even on a BB.
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Re: Marker+Extra Turrets+Seeker=op Messenger spam.

Postby CALiGeR190 » 12 September 2016, 17:08

I reiterate my suggestion of connecting it to health.
In its current form, it is too strong.
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Re: Marker+Extra Turrets+Seeker=op Messenger spam.

Postby Beernchips » 12 September 2016, 17:36

I can understand that giving Tau sme tools in close fights is a good idea but on the actual state it is too powerful.

Perhaps changing seeker missiles into : "no more arming range for heavy seeker missiles" can fit the same goal without leading to OP abuse
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Re: Marker+Extra Turrets+Seeker=op Messenger spam.

Postby Imperator5 » 12 September 2016, 18:01

I honestly think it should be around the same as Mark of Nurgle, a permanent damage that is around on par with Nurgle.

It can melt through shields in an extremely short time, and if it deals full damage to every ship in range. Against hulls it is not so drastic, but the Protector for instance gets a dominator's full broadside against every ship's shield in range which is a bit too much I think.
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Re: Marker+Extra Turrets+Seeker=op Messenger spam.

Postby MadDemiurg » 12 September 2016, 18:12

Bosie wrote:
Ravensburg wrote:
Beernchips wrote:It is hard to say if it is op until we know :
Accuracy of seeker turrets? (35% like vs ordnances or they use the Tau accuracy?)
Is it DPS vs all ships in range or is it split?


It does not use accuracy it's direct damages.

DPS is not split between ships, its full DPS against every ship.

Ravensburg


Mark of Nurgle caused 1 DPS to all ships for each ship that had it. It was changed to stop it stacking. That's a favor that costs from 200 to 1,600 points. This is 2 upgrades that do 1 DPS per turret to ALL targets in range. Man it's evil as fuck, and not in a good way.


MoN is 3 dps and ignores armour but otherwise you're right.

Personally I think changing seekers to affect the closest ship instead of being AoE should be enough. It would be 6 dps vs 50 armour or ~3 dps vs 70(50 + brace) - 75 armour.

Or maybe also tweak it to be 0.3-0.5 dps but also change it to AP so it's not as good vs shields. Shields are often already down at this range, but still. Or maybe only make it work on ships with shields down.

Let's not forget that Tau do not have AP for their macros and only a few lances, so they need a pretty decent boost for a viable 3k build vs something with 50+ armour and brace. Still, as AoE this seems too much.

To illustrate, 3k dps of protector vs bracing 50 armour ship broadside:

12*0.8*0.3 + 2*0.75 + 12*0.3 = 7.98. Time to kill 800 hp (average for other factions) cruiser = ~100 sec.

Dps of a dominator with AP at the same range/same armour = 12*0.8*0.55 = 5.28. Time to kill 600 hp cruiser = 113 sec. This is single broadside however, broadside oriented factions should try to go in between tau ships to maximise dps and ram them and then proceed to fire broadsides when/if Tau try to dodge and use both broadsides. Brace + 75 frontal armour should negate almost all damage when closing distance or ramming.

So all in I think it's maybe only slightly too good vs health, but it's definitely too strong vs shields and too good as AoE. I'd prefer leaving single target performance vs hull close to what it is now however cause tau do need help there.
Last edited by MadDemiurg on 12 September 2016, 18:42, edited 1 time in total.


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