Marker+Extra Turrets+Seeker=op Messenger spam.

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CALiGeR190
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Re: Marker+Extra Turrets+Seeker=op Messenger spam.

Postby CALiGeR190 » 12 September 2016, 21:11

Adrmial Seraph wrote:
CALiGeR190 wrote:
Adrmial Seraph wrote:
Agree to disagree is a nice sentiment...but when math proves your point totally wrong...I don't accept that.
You're not accounting for several variables such as point cost, the amount of turrets and so forth.

Doubling the shield and hull value only theoretically increases the damage two fold, just like how the total dps of messenger seeker spam is only theoretical because it's highly unlikely that you'll get 12 Messengers within 3k of 1 ship.

We seem to have a misunderstanding here, I'm comparing one against the other on an individual basis, not as a fleet.

I'm trying to argue with that a Dhow is doubly likely to get within 3K range, has (nearly) double the potential with seekers and a much superior base armament. I wasn't trying to argue for a pure Dhow build in that fashion, like I said, I was talking on an individual basis.

Optimally you can get 7 Dhows, in the same scenario you can manage about double that in Messengers. In that specific scenario it's very roughly even, but in most cases I concede that the numbers advantage is too great to recomend a Dhow seeker build.

Although it is worth pointing out that Dhows ARE more reliably going to do damage against a fleet.


Why compare on an individual basis though? You'd never send 1 messengers against a ship, same with the Dhow. Sending in 1 obfuscates the intended purpose of comparing them within the context of seeker spam. A singe Escort with seekers is meh, it's only when the damage starts stacking that we see alarming results.

Because I was specifically analysing value per ship.
I surpose the water caste favour makes a Dhow build useable, and I would argue that in the late game when you can take 7 Dhows it's worth it over messengers.

But generally the messenger spam can actually be used, even if its effectiveness hasn't impressed me at all in my testing.
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Adrmial Seraph
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Re: Marker+Extra Turrets+Seeker=op Messenger spam.

Postby Adrmial Seraph » 12 September 2016, 21:21

CALiGeR190 wrote:
Adrmial Seraph wrote:
CALiGeR190 wrote:We seem to have a misunderstanding here, I'm comparing one against the other on an individual basis, not as a fleet.

I'm trying to argue with that a Dhow is doubly likely to get within 3K range, has (nearly) double the potential with seekers and a much superior base armament. I wasn't trying to argue for a pure Dhow build in that fashion, like I said, I was talking on an individual basis.

Optimally you can get 7 Dhows, in the same scenario you can manage about double that in Messengers. In that specific scenario it's very roughly even, but in most cases I concede that the numbers advantage is too great to recomend a Dhow seeker build.

Although it is worth pointing out that Dhows ARE more reliably going to do damage against a fleet.


Why compare on an individual basis though? You'd never send 1 messengers against a ship, same with the Dhow. Sending in 1 obfuscates the intended purpose of comparing them within the context of seeker spam. A singe Escort with seekers is meh, it's only when the damage starts stacking that we see alarming results.

Because I was specifically analysing value per ship.
I surpose the water caste favour makes a Dhow build useable, and I would argue that in the late game when you can take 7 Dhows it's worth it over messengers.

But generally the messenger spam can actually be used, even if its effectiveness hasn't impressed me at all in my testing.


That's the one instance I agree with you on the Dhow, within this particular context being better, with Water Caste spam. My only issue with that is it's highly delayed whereas Messenger spam is immediate.

When you do messenger spam do you

1) set them up in a tightly nit horizontal line
2) move command them so they're in the enemy formation before ordering them to attack
3) keep them undetected until you're within boosting range
4) when boosting in, activate brace for impact on all of them
5) individually boost messengers within range of the targeted ship once your closest ships are within range
6) manually handle each repair activation and use repair liberally

Because in my experience without these 6 steps messenger spam is definitely not impressive and gets completely overwhelmed before they can deal crippling damage to the opponent's fleet.

Adrmial Seraph
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Re: Marker+Extra Turrets+Seeker=op Messenger spam.

Postby Adrmial Seraph » 13 September 2016, 00:48

Turns out that Stasis doesn't slow down Seekers (bug?). Might be interesting if you brawl since you can basically Mark of Nurgle stasis combo like back in the original beta when mark of Nurgle stacked.

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Re: Marker+Extra Turrets+Seeker=op Messenger spam.

Postby CALiGeR190 » 13 September 2016, 10:06

Adrmial Seraph wrote:Turns out that Stasis doesn't slow down Seekers (bug?). Might be interesting if you brawl since you can basically Mark of Nurgle stasis combo like back in the original beta when mark of Nurgle stacked.

They aren't projectiles, Its a direct damage aura effect.
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Adrmial Seraph
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Re: Marker+Extra Turrets+Seeker=op Messenger spam.

Postby Adrmial Seraph » 13 September 2016, 18:53

CALiGeR190 wrote:
Adrmial Seraph wrote:Turns out that Stasis doesn't slow down Seekers (bug?). Might be interesting if you brawl since you can basically Mark of Nurgle stasis combo like back in the original beta when mark of Nurgle stacked.

They aren't projectiles, Its a direct damage aura effect.


Which I found odd because when messenger spam meets messenger spam the game lags really, really bad, which I didn't expect auras to cause.


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