Lazy Model Design

General discussion regarding the Tau Empire beta.
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Avlaen
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Re: Lazy Model Design

Postby Avlaen » 09 September 2016, 23:43

Pulsars look preety similar to brightlances, and imperial lances look similar to a big bunce of lascannons stuck together.

If a gun works, and you make a bigger version of it and stick it on a ship and it works then its fine. the ion cannons on the ship look the same as the ground ones because thats what an ion Cannon "is"

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Atherius
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Re: Lazy Model Design

Postby Atherius » 09 September 2016, 23:56

I do not mind at all that Tau starship weapons resemble a Tau tank weapon. It makes them easier to visually identify, even, and recognize. And honestly? if you look at cannons of various sizes here on earth, especially without their turrets and especially the vintage ones, a 37mm, a 75mm, 105mm, 155mm, and so on, despite being very different in size, looks very similar. Both in configuration and proportions.

That an ion cannon meant for a tank, and an ion cannon meant for a startship, looks more or less the same is natural. Its litteraly the upscaling of the same technology to produce the same effect on a more massive scale.

I might agree when it comes to the drone, though I do want the drone. My complaint on it is that it seems to lack texture, making it seem a bit out of place. If it had hull texture, similar to those of the ships, a support platform like drones makes perfect sense as well considering Tau and their love of drones and automata.

Overall I think the team has done a fantastic job representing the Tau and their federate allies.

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Re: Lazy Model Design

Postby Rolepgeek » 10 September 2016, 02:07

Okay, so, while I can see the point of people saying upscaling these weapons is perfectly sensible, and you're right, but here's the thing.

Take a look at the Forgeworld and base game models for the Tau when they do upscale their weapons, and they are not identical. That ion cannon turret looks awful, frankly. It looks ungainly and overdecorated for it's size. For railguns, they could have taken inspiration from the
SXV-141 Super Heavy Assault Walker. They could have used Tigershark or Manta Heavy Railguns guides. Even if they'd used Drone Sentry Turrets as inspiration for the turret design, that would have been better. There's a half a dozen different possible ion cannon designs that work much better on a starship turret. They could, at minimum, use Remora Stealth Drones as guides for the drone design. Upscaling the Hammerhead turret was probably easiest, and if this is a placeholder, I can understand that, but I love the Tau and that is just bad. Please, Tindalos, please make this a placeholder. Even if it wasn't intended to be one originally, if you want to say it was, I will believe you.

Imperial weaponry is typically fairly standard designs, it comes from templates, a bunch of oversized lascannons focusing on a single point is essentially what a lance battery was. That's why they were called batteries. Tau weaponry is constantly being developed. The Kor'Or'Vesh in particular was the culmination of a massive R&D effort to create a fleet purpose built for combat and protection of logistical vessels in the realities of the 41at millenium. Their guns would not be hammerhead turrets sized up fiftyfold. :/

LittleBlueMan
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Re: Lazy Model Design

Postby LittleBlueMan » 10 September 2016, 21:04

Alright, so it seems that the Tau cruiser has what appears to be stealth suit heads right around the torpedo launchers, and the flat sides of the two discs that cap the Tau defense platforms are the same as the flat discs of gun drones. All of you who were arguing so fervently that I don't understand the basics of up-scaling Tau space weapons, how would you defend this? Do they just simply upscale Tau gun drones into space stations large enough to fit thousands of people? The models have had corners cut. It's undeniable. You're welcome to enjoy the models, but I expected more than a kitbash from professional releases.

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Kalenath
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Re: Lazy Model Design

Postby Kalenath » 10 September 2016, 21:08

Yes, standardized weapons make NO sense from an efficiency stand point for a brand new and expanding military. We all know it was design laziness that made most field artillery pieces in WWI and WWII look similar. Especially on ships. It was sheer laziness.

Sarcasm aside, the Tau are making it up as they go. Just like some people did with artillery that they decided to mount on ships in real life. The ballista,the catapult, the cannon, all of these were lazy design choices for ships because they were copied from other designs used on land?

I don't see that as lazy. I see it as efficient and true to the principles of the Greater Good. It simply makes SENSE to use what you KNOW works instead of just throwing stuff together and hoping it does as you want. (Unless of course, you are an Ork...)
You deny the Greater Good? I regret that.

YOU will regret the seeker missile that is now homing in on your personal biosignature. Have a nice day.


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Imperator5
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Re: Lazy Model Design

Postby Imperator5 » 10 September 2016, 22:26

Kalenath wrote:Yes, standardized weapons make NO sense from an efficiency stand point for a brand new and expanding military. We all know it was design laziness that made most field artillery pieces in WWI and WWII look similar. Especially on ships. It was sheer laziness.

Sarcasm aside, the Tau are making it up as they go. Just like some people did with artillery that they decided to mount on ships in real life. The ballista,the catapult, the cannon, all of these were lazy design choices for ships because they were copied from other designs used on land?

I don't see that as lazy. I see it as efficient and true to the principles of the Greater Good. It simply makes SENSE to use what you KNOW works instead of just throwing stuff together and hoping it does as you want. (Unless of course, you are an Ork...)


Wot ya sed ya blueberri git? Ya eemplyn' we orkz iz dumb? We'ze da beztezt meks an' makez da stompiest ulks wiv lotsa shooty dakka an' stompy blastin! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!

The drones look a bit odd, but the weapons look fine to me.
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

Please help me change skirmish to be customisable. Its very important for PVE players.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=515 Mod idea.

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Kalenath
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Re: Lazy Model Design

Postby Kalenath » 10 September 2016, 22:49

Imperator5 wrote:
Wot ya sed ya blueberri git? Ya eemplyn' we orkz iz dumb? We'ze da beztezt meks an' makez da stompiest ulks wiv lotsa shooty dakka an' stompy blastin! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!

The drones look a bit odd, but the weapons look fine to me.


I didn't say that. YOU did.

That said, the Ork Meks DO just throw stuff together sometimes and pray it works. Sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes, you need a new Mek or he needs a LONG stay with the Dok. Sometimes, you need a new ship or crew...
You deny the Greater Good? I regret that.

YOU will regret the seeker missile that is now homing in on your personal biosignature. Have a nice day.


:P

LittleBlueMan
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Re: Lazy Model Design

Postby LittleBlueMan » 11 September 2016, 01:05

The argument that I see the most here, is that the Tau would TOTALLY scale up their weapons, that they're new, and that they're making it up as they go, and therefore the models are appropriate. Allow me to respond.

1. Tau Ion cannon tech comes from the Demiurg, in some form that none of us know. It could have been scaled DOWN to the tanks for all we know.

2. Tau Battlefleet Gothic models for Tabletop Battlefleet Gothic (Both FW and GW variety) ALREADY HAD MODELED WEAPONS. These weapons were modeled railguns AND ion cannons.

3. This isn't a case of scaling up a burst cannon 30% to fit onto a larger batlesuit, or of scaling up an early cannon from our own history onto a ship. This is an EXACT, IDENTICAL model, one that is measured on a scale of feet, and making it on the order of 1,000x bigger.

4. Again, I'm not opposed to the weapons THEMATICALLY. I like them, and it makes sense that these Ion Cannons would look similar. They don't look similar. They are the piece from the TABLETOP 40K tanks, cut and pasted onto a spaceship kilometers long. Please understand this. It isn't a thematic issue. It isn't about related technology.

5. This makes the ship look less thematically fitting. Look at the Tau Riptide Ion Cannons. They are SIMILAR but DIFFERENT, and the model benefits from this aesthetically. These are models that are even in the same scale. Again, one could fit thousands of these tanks inside of a Tau Spaceship.

Regards,
LBM


Did some research: A Tau Hammerhead is 8.25 metres long according to Lexicanum. I couldn't find hard #'s on Tau ship length, but an Imperial Battlship is around 6km according to all sources I found. So again this is literally 1000x larger.

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Imperator5
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Re: Lazy Model Design

Postby Imperator5 » 11 September 2016, 09:42

Kalenath wrote:
Imperator5 wrote:
Wot ya sed ya blueberri git? Ya eemplyn' we orkz iz dumb? We'ze da beztezt meks an' makez da stompiest ulks wiv lotsa shooty dakka an' stompy blastin! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!

The drones look a bit odd, but the weapons look fine to me.


I didn't say that. YOU did.

That said, the Ork Meks DO just throw stuff together sometimes and pray it works. Sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes, you need a new Mek or he needs a LONG stay with the Dok. Sometimes, you need a new ship or crew...


I was actually joking.

Anyway, Imperial battleships are anything but 6km. That was just a fan estimate. Official data includes 8km and 16km.
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

Please help me change skirmish to be customisable. Its very important for PVE players.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=515 Mod idea.

LittleBlueMan
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Re: Lazy Model Design

Postby LittleBlueMan » 11 September 2016, 09:44

Imperator5 wrote:
Anyway, Imperial battleships are anything but 6km. That was just a fan estimate. Official data includes 8km and 16km.


16km seems a bit high, but if this is the case it's even more to my point.


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