troop value to high

General discussion regarding the Tau Empire beta.
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Ashardalon
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troop value to high

Postby Ashardalon » 08 September 2016, 21:46

tau are weak fragile and squishy
they have the tech to compensate, but within the confines of a ship?
similarly their internal tech is fancy but easy to smash, not built to last for millennia of abuse
instead of going for the krak-missile-proof monitor they chose the HD model
would love to see troop value reduced by 10 maybe 15
and Kroot buffed by 10~15
make dedicated brawlers dedicated to brawling with enough kroot to eat your face(if the shapers say you taste good)
but my sneaky earth cast snipers shouldnt have that much defensive value

randuir
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Re: troop value to high

Postby randuir » 08 September 2016, 21:54

I won't judge the gameplay balance of this suggestion, but from a lore perspective there is no reason why a Tau should should have worse boarding defenses than an imperial navy ship. A boarding action doesn't equal hand-to-hand combat, and the almighty pulse rifle isn't any less deadly from 10 metres than it is from a 100. As I understand it, the Tau body isn't any weaker than the human one, they just place more emphasis on ranged combat in their training, to the point that they almost forgo hand-to-hand combat, so I don't see any (lore) reason why the Tau would fair worse than regular humans.

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Imperator5
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Re: troop value to high

Postby Imperator5 » 09 September 2016, 02:23

randuir wrote:I won't judge the gameplay balance of this suggestion, but from a lore perspective there is no reason why a Tau should should have worse boarding defenses than an imperial navy ship. A boarding action doesn't equal hand-to-hand combat, and the almighty pulse rifle isn't any less deadly from 10 metres than it is from a 100. As I understand it, the Tau body isn't any weaker than the human one, they just place more emphasis on ranged combat in their training, to the point that they almost forgo hand-to-hand combat, so I don't see any (lore) reason why the Tau would fair worse than regular humans.


They are physically weaker, even the Fire warriors. However, they do have point defense guns I assume, but so does everybody else beside orks I think. However most other races beside Eldar and Marines can put out a number of ratings that just bog down the enemy in addition to the defenses. I would say they could have 50 troop value, though I would personally give them 40 and Eldar 50, though that is for more Craftworld fleets.
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Ahzek Ahriman
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Re: troop value to high

Postby Ahzek Ahriman » 09 September 2016, 05:03

Fully agree, Tau's troop value should be lower. Not a lot lower, but lower, like 40 or so.

Getting close to them is hell, but you are supposed to squash them once you get there. Imo 50 TV gives them still enough to mitigate a lot of assault actions, especially boarding action where turrets increase TV.

40 TV would be a good step towards balance.
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Ahzek Ahriman
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Re: troop value to high

Postby Ahzek Ahriman » 09 September 2016, 05:11

randuir wrote:I won't judge the gameplay balance of this suggestion, but from a lore perspective there is no reason why a Tau should should have worse boarding defenses than an imperial navy ship. A boarding action doesn't equal hand-to-hand combat, and the almighty pulse rifle isn't any less deadly from 10 metres than it is from a 100. As I understand it, the Tau body isn't any weaker than the human one, they just place more emphasis on ranged combat in their training, to the point that they almost forgo hand-to-hand combat, so I don't see any (lore) reason why the Tau would fair worse than regular humans.


Then you understand it kinda wrong (not trying to offend you).

Tau body IS in fact weaker than average human's. I've seen a ton of indication that fire warrior (warrior!) is slightly weaker physically than average guardsman, also shorter. This bit of information is remarkably consistent between sources (by 40k standards), only the height varies more. But then again, SM height varies even more.

The very reason they forgo hand to hand combat, the very reason it lies in their philosophy is exactly because they are physically weak, not because they could be strong but don't want to in melee.

Also, boarding actions certainly involve a lot of close range fighting and Imperium/Chaos/Orks have a liiiiiiitle bit more weapons that are crude but powerful at short range. For instance an average shock trooper is much more likely to bear flamer/melta than average fire warrior is to carry fusion blaster. Also in cramped space aboard the warship melee fighting is inevitable. 2 opposing parties run into each other around the corner, boom here you go.
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Re: troop value to high

Postby Rolepgeek » 09 September 2016, 05:19

The difference in strength between Fire Warrior and human is small enough not to matter, especially since the fact that they're shorter means they would have better leverage when grappling.

The reason the boarding value is as it is is because that's how the Forge World BFG models were. The original Tau fleet, the Kor'Vattra, had reduced boarding value. Their newer models did not. They have specialized Fire Warrior parties intended to repel boarders and, on the rare occasion that it would be necessary or useful, board enemy vessels. They could not use Lightning Strikes, is all, and they sucked at close range in every other aspect. Being slow, with maybe 130-140% of the strength of a typical Imperial Broadside total, and having a rather difficult time making use of their missiles, meant you always wanted to stay as far away as possible, especially when you could be accurate from afar.

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Re: troop value to high

Postby Ravensburg » 09 September 2016, 10:13

Rolepgeek wrote:The difference in strength between Fire Warrior and human is small enough not to matter, especially since the fact that they're shorter means they would have better leverage when grappling.

The reason the boarding value is as it is is because that's how the Forge World BFG models were. The original Tau fleet, the Kor'Vattra, had reduced boarding value. Their newer models did not. They have specialized Fire Warrior parties intended to repel boarders and, on the rare occasion that it would be necessary or useful, board enemy vessels. They could not use Lightning Strikes, is all, and they sucked at close range in every other aspect. Being slow, with maybe 130-140% of the strength of a typical Imperial Broadside total, and having a rather difficult time making use of their missiles, meant you always wanted to stay as far away as possible, especially when you could be accurate from afar.


Thanks for this Rolepgeek you're absolutely right. In the last compendium BFG version it said:
Boarding Actions and Teleport Attacks
All Tau vessels except Kor‟or‟vesh warships have a
boarding strength that is half normal for the size of
ship. Kor‟or‟vesh warships have a standard boarding
value. Tau ships may not conduct teleport hit and run
attacks.


Also I don't think boarding action at the scale of BFG are more classic skirmishes that will imply as many gunfights as hand to hand combats and I'm pretty sure that those blue xenos are not bad at skirmishes.

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Re: troop value to high

Postby frankdark » 09 September 2016, 10:56

First of All, you have to Splitt the Factions.

Fire, Earth and Air Cast.

Air Casts are absulute Weak and could be killed by a good fist hit.
But are Masters in Space Movment and i am sure Zero G Combat.

Earth Cast are Stronger and Bulkier than a average Human.
But have no Battel Expirience and will only fight if corned. But if they can be compared to a Ork.

Earth Cast are a bit smaller an thiner as a Human
But they train Combat most of there time and there Bodys are well trained and keep up to trained Soilders

They have 3 Weeknesses in Space Combat.

First Bad 3D Percetion
Second theyre Fighting Codex of Long Range.
Third they can´t use in defese there Firepower. They would Blow up their Own Ships.

But on the otherside

Drones for Combat
Special non Damaging Weapons Photon Granates
---------------

On the Otherside there is the Game Balancing.
I realy think they could be a bit lower to balance the imense firepower

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Kalenath
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Re: troop value to high

Postby Kalenath » 09 September 2016, 11:24

I am not sure about this to tell the truth.

The Tau learn fast and I can see them having dedicated drones for boarding or counter boarding. That said, they are NOT good at hand to hand, so they won't stand up well against Space Marines or Orks.

The Kroot warsphere I got last night is HILARIOUSLY OP in boarding but is SO slow. It makes the Emperor class battleship look like a hummingbird, However, by the SHAPERS, it hits hard and when it gets into boarding range, its dinner time. Haven't tried the Demiurg yet.

Regular Tau WILL be weaker than most any other race in boarding, but they are not stupid. Stupidity does not serve the Greater Good.

I think they could use some tweaks beyond not being able to lightning strike (Which the Kroot CAN!), but not a wholesale reduction.
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Imperator5
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Re: troop value to high

Postby Imperator5 » 09 September 2016, 11:29

This is what happens when people got nothing but GW's at least 10 years outdated system to work with. It does not confine to the lore anymore, but Tindalos is stuck with it.

For example, during BFG, lightning strikes were a thing. In the more recent lore, Teleporters are exceedingly rare and I honestly never read about one on an Imperial Navy ship. Mechanicus, Astartes, Inquisition, yeah, but Navy? Nope.

The Tau's aversion to close combat comes from two factors.

First, their bodies are weaker and more fragile than humans. Apparently this is due to T'au being a low gravity planet.
Second, their eyes are different. They see much better at long range and into the infra-red and ultraviolet spectrum, but they got real trouble with depth perception and focusing on moving targets.
So if you try to sit down and outshoot the Tau, you are in deep trouble unless you got even better supereyes like Eldar or Marines or Necrons.
But this means that charging them puts their aim off, and they are rather bad at melee because for that you kind of need to focus on fast moving blades and depth perception.
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