How I would do the Tau + Allies

Discuss the Tau fleet. For the Greater Good!
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Kadaeux
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Re: How I would do the Tau + Allies

Postby Kadaeux » 08 May 2016, 06:20

RedDevilCG wrote:I seem to recall that even though the Tau fighters were inferior to their Imperial counterparts technology wise, they still held their own due to the natural piloting skills and spatial cognition of the Air caste pilots.


Somewhat, their disadvantage was primarily speed. For example, Barracudas actually couldn't catch Imperial Assault Boats. It's not a crippling disadvantage. But it's there.

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Re: How I would do the Tau + Allies

Postby Auzor » 11 May 2016, 15:29

MadDemiurg wrote:Eldar craft actually have 30% dodge (only torpedoes have 50%), so 60% at max pilots vs 30% of others, slightly less than 2x survivability.

I don't think there are going to be different saves for fighters and turrets, so I'd expect Tau bombers have same 30% base dodge, possibly with the same 30 damage vs 25 armour as most bombers.

And yeah, clumped up escorts with extra turrets can take out ordnance pretty well, but you can fire at smth else and escorts are not difficult to kill with other means. Also, BB has 21 turrets.


30 vs 50%: yeah.. during beta various values were thrown around.
Anyway, with 60% at max, and now we know that turrets have a 35% "hit" chance vs bombers,
21 turrets vs an enemy carrier wave (4 launch bays). 21 x 0.35=7.35. woohoo.
vs 60% dodge: 2.94.
Considering a bomber squadron contains normally 3 bombers, 3 fighters, that is 1.5 dead bombers, out of a total of 3 x4=12.
On average 10-11 bombers hit the BB. (without other turrets/fighters around).

Or BB is covered, by 2 fighter squads, 6 fighters each, each fires 2 shots. 6x2x2=24.. barely above the BB. 3.36 hits, again about 1.5 bombers dead. (this assumes the enemy fighters don't kill some of the covering fighters before they empty their ammo..)


--> Overall; "bomber -tau" could well be a very real threat.

Chaos bombers, 4 launch bays vs the 21 turrets: 21 x 0.35 x 0.7=5.145. on average, 2.5 dead bombers.

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Re: How I would do the Tau + Allies

Postby Auzor » 11 May 2016, 15:37

Levandor wrote:How about inverted accuracy?

12K = 80%

9K = 60%

6K = 40%

3K = 20%

0K = 0%


It seems no-one answered you:
NO.
Tau were not about long ranged macro cannon fire at all.
In BFG:A terms, their longest ranged weaponry would be 9k equivalent (though Tindalos has buffed some ranges on certain ships from "9k" to "12k"..), and not a single lance had a range above "6k", including the Battleship. (though.. Tau had no battle/grand cruiser..)

In addition, think about what that would mean for escorts.. completely useless, and they were very much a part of the fleet.

Finally: most weapons would be fired to the FRONT. One enemy speed boost and they are closing into at least 6k; if you run you lose at least half your firepower.

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Re: How I would do the Tau + Allies

Postby Kadaeux » 11 May 2016, 21:10

Auzor wrote:
MadDemiurg wrote:Eldar craft actually have 30% dodge (only torpedoes have 50%), so 60% at max pilots vs 30% of others, slightly less than 2x survivability.

I don't think there are going to be different saves for fighters and turrets, so I'd expect Tau bombers have same 30% base dodge, possibly with the same 30 damage vs 25 armour as most bombers.

And yeah, clumped up escorts with extra turrets can take out ordnance pretty well, but you can fire at smth else and escorts are not difficult to kill with other means. Also, BB has 21 turrets.


30 vs 50%: yeah.. during beta various values were thrown around.
Anyway, with 60% at max, and now we know that turrets have a 35% "hit" chance vs bombers,
21 turrets vs an enemy carrier wave (4 launch bays). 21 x 0.35=7.35. woohoo.
vs 60% dodge: 2.94.
Considering a bomber squadron contains normally 3 bombers, 3 fighters, that is 1.5 dead bombers, out of a total of 3 x4=12.
On average 10-11 bombers hit the BB. (without other turrets/fighters around).

Or BB is covered, by 2 fighter squads, 6 fighters each, each fires 2 shots. 6x2x2=24.. barely above the BB. 3.36 hits, again about 1.5 bombers dead. (this assumes the enemy fighters don't kill some of the covering fighters before they empty their ammo..)


--> Overall; "bomber -tau" could well be a very real threat.

Chaos bombers, 4 launch bays vs the 21 turrets: 21 x 0.35 x 0.7=5.145. on average, 2.5 dead bombers.


The catch there is that, the Tau didn't deploy "bombers" per se. For every other faction launching a squadron of Bombers, the Tau launched a single Manta. So it'd be interesting to see how Tindalos handles that.

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Re: How I would do the Tau + Allies

Postby Steel*Faith » 13 May 2016, 19:01

Slow; The Tau are no better than Orks when it comes to speed. And some ships are even slower.


If we're talking about the lore, and not the TT (I don't play TT), Tau Fleets are only slower in respects to long distance, inter-galactic space travel, due to them not using the Warp. This also means they cannot become "lost in the Warp" though.

As for their in-system propulsion systems, they are far faster and more maneuverable than the Imperial Navy, never mind the Orks. As some have pointed out already, their pilots are biologically superior to human Imperial pilots, and are more naturally skilled, giving them an edge.

Tau were not about long ranged macro cannon fire at all.


In terms of weapon accuracy potential, Tau should be #1. Their railguns are going to have far better long range accuracy than other races macro-weapons.

Other than that, most of what the OP said was well constructed and accurate, thanks for the write-up.

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Re: How I would do the Tau + Allies

Postby RedDevilCG » 13 May 2016, 19:38

Kadaeux wrote:The catch there is that, the Tau didn't deploy "bombers" per se. For every other faction launching a squadron of Bombers, the Tau launched a single Manta. So it'd be interesting to see how Tindalos handles that.
Aye, it will be interesting to see how they handle it indeed considering the Manta is used as the Tau's version of a Titan when it appears on the battlefield, bristling with weapons and using the same gravitic wedge to shield front just like the Tau cruisers.

For some reason I thought their Mantas had a 4+ save, but now that I looked at the rules again I don't see that. Otherwise, their single Manta behaved the same as regular bomber squads.

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Re: How I would do the Tau + Allies

Postby Kadaeux » 14 May 2016, 01:19

Steel*Faith wrote:As for their in-system propulsion systems, they are far faster and more maneuverable than the Imperial Navy, never mind the Orks. As some have pointed out already, their pilots are biologically superior to human Imperial pilots, and are more naturally skilled, giving them an edge.


This is somewhat false, even in the lore the Tau ships are no better than the Orks or Imperium, and for the Kor'Vattra fleet are considerably worse (It was the Imperium stomping all over the Tau during the Damocles Crusade that forced them to develop the Kor'Or'Vesh, they are definitely not "far faster" or "more manoeuvrable" and their pilots superiority is exceptionally debatable (and less relevant when the Barracuda is inferior to the dominant space superiority fighters of most other races.)

Them being slow however is less relevant against Orks or Imperial Navy as it is against Eldar or the Space Marines. Against Orks, it only matters because they can't run out of engagement range, if the Tau don't do major damage before getting in close, enough to cripple the Orks, then the Tau are going to be manhandled. (Against Orks, the Tau should depend on their carrier strength.)

In terms of weapon accuracy potential, Tau should be #1. Their railguns are going to have far better long range accuracy than other races macro-weapons.


Not quite true, when you factor in those Macro-weapons are also firing with the same degree of velocities, several pieces of lore show that Imperium ship-to-ship Macrobatteries are accelerated using graviometric impellers (The same impellers that hurl a Nova Cannon at 99% the speed of light.) etc.

But yes you are right on the accuracy potential IF they have a Messenger or Custodian in range to provide the greater targeting data. (In the TT, the Messenger and Custodian gave a left column shift for accuracy for Railguns, nothing improved the accuracy of Ion Cannons or any other lances, and the rest was self-guided ordnance)

Other than that, most of what the OP said was well constructed and accurate, thanks for the write-up.


Thanks.

RedDevilCG wrote:Aye, it will be interesting to see how they handle it indeed considering the Manta is used as the Tau's version of a Titan when it appears on the battlefield, bristling with weapons and using the same gravitic wedge to shield front just like the Tau cruisers.


Not a gravitic wedge. The Manta only has energy shields. The Gravitic wedge can't even be mounted on the Tau's smallest escorts and the Gravitic Wedge is what gives them FTL capacity. Mantas are definitely not FTL capable :p

For some reason I thought their Mantas had a 4+ save, but now that I looked at the rules again I don't see that. Otherwise, their single Manta behaved the same as regular bomber squads.


"Mantas. Mantas are bombers, each marker represents a single vessel. They are well shielded and if intercepted by enemy fighters roll a D6, on a roll of 4+ the Manta is not removed. Mantas move 20cm. Whilst Mantas can carry large numbers of troops they are not used to board enemy vessels as boarding is totally contrary to the Tau’s approach to space warfare."

Bear in mind here, that shield is only considered protection against fighters. It offered no defence against Turrets at all.

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Re: How I would do the Tau + Allies

Postby RedDevilCG » 14 May 2016, 02:56

Kadaeux wrote:and their pilots superiority is exceptionally debatable (and less relevant when the Barracuda is inferior to the dominant space superiority fighters of most other races.)
The only reason why the Tau fighters fought evenly with the Imperial ones was because they were superior pilots. It didn't make them more effective, but lead to a surprising (for the Imperial Navy) stalemate of sorts. If I had the first Tau codex I could probably pull out the fluff quote but I sold it off long ago when I moved on from TT gaming. Another fluff quote states something along the lines of "...because the air caste have developed hallow bones, they are able to tolerate extreme acceleration" (which is ridiculous but whatever). In the end it doesn't really matter as in the TT game everyone's fighters are the same.

RedDevilCG wrote:Aye, it will be interesting to see how they handle it indeed considering the Manta is used as the Tau's version of a Titan when it appears on the battlefield, bristling with weapons and using the same gravitic wedge to shield front just like the Tau cruisers.

Not a gravitic wedge. The Manta only has energy shields. The Gravitic wedge can't even be mounted on the Tau's smallest escorts and the Gravitic Wedge is what gives them FTL capacity. Mantas are definitely not FTL capable :p
Yeah you're probably right about that one. It's been a while since I've read the Epic 40K Tau rules, but I was pretty sure it got a regular save and a directional 6+ invulnerable save. The regular save was from armour and shields, and the invulnerable save was because it still used gravity technology to hover on the field and could create a mini-wedge in it's forward arc. I could be miss-remembering though.

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Re: How I would do the Tau + Allies

Postby Kadaeux » 14 May 2016, 03:09

RedDevilCG wrote:The only reason why the Tau fighters fought evenly with the Imperial ones was because they were superior pilots. It didn't make them more effective, but lead to a surprising (for the Imperial Navy) stalemate of sorts. If I had the first Tau codex I could probably pull out the fluff quote but I sold it off long ago when I moved on from TT gaming. Another fluff quote states something along the lines of "...because the air caste have developed hallow bones, they are able to tolerate extreme acceleration" (which is ridiculous but whatever). In the end it doesn't really matter as in the TT game everyone's fighters are the same.


Ah, but that is the catch. In the TT BFG, everyones fighters were not the same. The Tau fighters were actually slower than everyone else except the Ork and Tyranid fighters. Indeed, the Barracudas were actually slower than Assault Boats, a Tau player who miscalculated his intercept would watch as the Assault Boats of the Eldar, Imperium, Chaos etc sailed past, impossible for the Tau to intercept with their Barracudas. (Mind you, the player would have to screw up epically for this.)

Yeah you're probably right about that one. It's been a while since I've read the Epic 40K Tau rules, but I was pretty sure it got a regular save and a directional 6+ invulnerable save.


It was an all-round 4+ save on TT 40k and BFG both.

The regular save was from armour and shields, and the invulnerable save was because it still used gravity technology to hover on the field and could create a mini-wedge in it's forward arc. I could be miss-remembering though.


You are ;) It was a flat 4+ invulnerable.
It has a 13, 12, 11 armour values. (Front/Sides/Rear)

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Re: How I would do the Tau + Allies

Postby RedDevilCG » 14 May 2016, 04:43

Oh wait! It's IA3 that I'm thinking about and not the first Tau codex. Thanks for jogging my memory. Now that I pulled it out I found what I was thinking about before.

1) Pg. 208, 4th para: Mantas actually are capable of FTL flight by this time period, and are the smallest spacecraft to have etherdrive (only good for short interstellar trips due to the size). I don't have the EPIC rules in front of me (and as I recall there were two versions by the end and neither of them made fully official), but I'm more certain than ever that it did have an additional save in EPIC due to the etherdrive in one of the versions. Sadly, Specialist Games went under before anything was made official, and I've been wrong before about the exact rules due to time warping my memory! :x

2) Pg. 194, 1st para: Barracudas are faster than Marauder bombers, but slower than Thunderbolt/Lightning fighters (we already knew this), but it also confirms that the Barracudas had better electronic systems and were more maneuverable. The 2nd paragraph goes on to confirm that Air Caste pilots have better three-dimensional awareness and marginally better acceleration and gravitational tolerances than human pilots. (It was here and not in the Tau codex after all!) Thank god it doesn't mention anything silly like hallow bones here....

It seems that this basically means their advantages canceled out, and it works out that way in BFG when the counters meet (I wasn't referring to the speed earlier when I was saying they were the same, but that 1 counter of fighters generally cancels another counter). Sorry for the confusion on that last point :oops:

In the end, it's mostly just interesting fluff as in this game fighters just remain on combat air patrol for the most part and I doubt anything special will happen with Tau bombers except maybe being more resilient in manner similar to Eldar torpedoes.

Now what I really want to know is how they implement Gravatic Launchers. Homing torpedoes? Hopefully they don't end up as much a mess as the current Pulsars are :?


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