How I would do the Tau + Allies

Discuss the Tau fleet. For the Greater Good!
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MadDemiurg
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Re: How I would do the Tau + Allies

Postby MadDemiurg » 02 May 2016, 14:39

Kadaeux wrote:
MadDemiurg wrote:Well, I'm speaking from extensive MP experience in the current game, not how it would play out in TT. Prow firepower is better than broadside firepower in a brawl especially if you have 75 frotal armour.


The biggest catch is.

The Tau (assuming as we are that it'd carry over more or less comparing tabletop stats etc) only have that Frontal Armour if they haven't suffered a prow critical. And, the Custodian (continuing our example) ANY weapon critical except for the Launch Bays (I don't see the Gravitic Hooks being included as a crit-able system.) will be a prow critical. And once that happens, their deflector is down, they're stuck with 50 armour front like everyone else.

Though you're the only person i've ever seen seriously arguing that PRow firepower is better than broadside, or that armour means anything in a brawl anymore :p


Armour indeed does not mean THAT much, since AP upgrades make it kinda pointless at 3k, still it's a nice added bonus and the enemy will deal much less macro damage when closing to 3k (if he choses to do it at all). Also I hope some changes to AP will come with the Space marine release cause otherwise they are soooo dead.

As for prow vs broadside - just ask any competent ork players. Prow firepower is better for chasing (obviously), makes it easier for you to ram or avoid rams (ship profile, although probably not for Tau given their ship models), makes it easier to focus fire, since ships stack better that way, also easier to stay on target (same thing as with chasing). Broadsides are only better when you can use both, so the only viable move for broadside heavy brawlers vs prow heavy ships is to charge through their formation. If you try to turn to employ broadsides while the enemy fleet is still engaging you frontally you're likely fucked. Charging through the ork formation is often suicidal beacuause of rams, but can work vs Tau, that's why I mentioned ram tactics.

Levandor
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Re: How I would do the Tau + Allies

Postby Levandor » 06 May 2016, 11:30

How about inverted accuracy?

12K = 80%

9K = 60%

6K = 40%

3K = 20%

0K = 0%

Auzor
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Re: How I would do the Tau + Allies

Postby Auzor » 06 May 2016, 12:50

Kadaeux wrote:
MadDemiurg wrote:Well, I'm speaking from extensive MP experience in the current game, not how it would play out in TT. Prow firepower is better than broadside firepower in a brawl especially if you have 75 frotal armour.


The biggest catch is.

The Tau (assuming as we are that it'd carry over more or less comparing tabletop stats etc) only have that Frontal Armour if they haven't suffered a prow critical. And, the Custodian (continuing our example) ANY weapon critical except for the Launch Bays (I don't see the Gravitic Hooks being included as a crit-able system.) will be a prow critical. And once that happens, their deflector is down, they're stuck with 50 armour front like everyone else.

Though you're the only person i've ever seen seriously arguing that PRow firepower is better than broadside, or that armour means anything in a brawl anymore :p


Nope;
Custodian:
Prow gravitic ("torpedo") launcher,
EVERYTHING else, is Port/Starboard.
Now, the "unique-ish" thing about the Tau Port/starboard weaponry:
it is weaker than IN Port/starboard weaponry;
But, it can cover the front arc.


Prow > broadside:
See Eldar, and arguably Orks. I'd argue both are the most powerfull fleets still; both feature more Prow weaponry than Chaos/IN, and bigger alpha.
Tau won't have to do a big turn to bring their torpedoes to bear; they will already be aiming with the front weapons..
That said: I wouldn't expect the Tau fleet to get Alpha damage & manoeuvring like Eldar, or the tankiness of the Orcs.
Kiting Orcs: they'd have about half the broadside firepower of Chaos/IN to do it with.
In a Brawl: the broadside advantage is that you can often go into the enemy fleet, and use both broadsides.
Another disadvantage: frontal torpedoes, or bombs etc:
Chaos goes side-on early, and can thus dodge torpedoes, using boost as needed.
Tau stays head on to enemy fleet, torpedoes come in.. turn, lose firepower, then boost? Or eat some torpedoes? We should note however, many Tau ships have fighters.

Oh: and I'd like to see the AP macro removed, for everyone.
It will mean ships take less damage from weaponry, making ramming and bombs etc relatively more important; the game needs quite a few changes, but it is madness that a sword frigate can take an upgrade and just slice through the frontal armor of a BB..

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Kadaeux
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Re: How I would do the Tau + Allies

Postby Kadaeux » 06 May 2016, 13:04

Auzor wrote:Tau won't have to do a big turn to bring their torpedoes to bear; they will already be aiming with the front weapons..


That is the advantage AND disadvantage. If they're maximising firepower, they're front on. But due to their poor survivability, they've got to turn aside much sooner and make range. And they don't have the speed to do it forever.

That said: I wouldn't expect the Tau fleet to get Alpha damage & manoeuvring like Eldar, or the tankiness of the Orcs.


No, they're already lacking in all three. Unless you count their strike craft as part of Alpha.

Kiting Orcs: they'd have about half the broadside firepower of Chaos/IN to do it with.


Significantly less. The Custodian, a battleship, only has 1 Lance strength worth more broadside power than a Dauntless Light Cruiser. (Not counting it's carrier capacity)

In a Brawl: the broadside advantage is that you can often go into the enemy fleet, and use both broadsides.
Another disadvantage: frontal torpedoes, or bombs etc:
Chaos goes side-on early, and can thus dodge torpedoes, using boost as needed.
Tau stays head on to enemy fleet, torpedoes come in.. turn, lose firepower, then boost? Or eat some torpedoes? We should note however, many Tau ships have fighters.


Most of them above escort. When the Tau arrive, I expect them to probably take over as the Carrier Kings.

Oh: and I'd like to see the AP macro removed, for everyone.


Or reworked. -25 as opposed to set to 25 is probably better. But removed works.

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Re: How I would do the Tau + Allies

Postby MadDemiurg » 06 May 2016, 13:29

Afaik alpha/rof is not a part of TT, so it's up to implementation. And bombers can do some serious alpha. If tau will outclass chaos and eldar in this regard even more so (I kinda think they compete with chaos in terms of # of launchbays while having Eldar quality fighters and bombers?).

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Kadaeux
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Re: How I would do the Tau + Allies

Postby Kadaeux » 06 May 2016, 13:33

MadDemiurg wrote:Afaik alpha/rof is not a part of TT, so it's up to implementation. And bombers can do some serious alpha. If tau will outclass chaos and eldar in this regard even more so (I kinda think they compete with chaos in terms of # of launchbays while having Eldar quality fighters and bombers?).


Only Bombers. The Tau fighters are slower than every other fighter except Fighta-Bommers and are noted to be inferior technology to the other races. And while ships have comparable bays. Tau have more ships with those bays.

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MadDemiurg
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Re: How I would do the Tau + Allies

Postby MadDemiurg » 06 May 2016, 17:19

Kadaeux wrote:
MadDemiurg wrote:Afaik alpha/rof is not a part of TT, so it's up to implementation. And bombers can do some serious alpha. If tau will outclass chaos and eldar in this regard even more so (I kinda think they compete with chaos in terms of # of launchbays while having Eldar quality fighters and bombers?).


Only Bombers. The Tau fighters are slower than every other fighter except Fighta-Bommers and are noted to be inferior technology to the other races. And while ships have comparable bays. Tau have more ships with those bays.


Well, Eldar strength bombers in quantities that dwarf chaos sounds like plenty of alpha. LCs with a few turrets wlll go down in a single run.

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Re: How I would do the Tau + Allies

Postby Auzor » 06 May 2016, 19:03

MadDemiurg wrote:
Kadaeux wrote:
MadDemiurg wrote:Afaik alpha/rof is not a part of TT, so it's up to implementation. And bombers can do some serious alpha. If tau will outclass chaos and eldar in this regard even more so (I kinda think they compete with chaos in terms of # of launchbays while having Eldar quality fighters and bombers?).


Only Bombers. The Tau fighters are slower than every other fighter except Fighta-Bommers and are noted to be inferior technology to the other races. And while ships have comparable bays. Tau have more ships with those bays.


Well, Eldar strength bombers in quantities that dwarf chaos sounds like plenty of alpha. LCs with a few turrets wlll go down in a single run.


Eldar > Tau in a "1-to-1" comparison.
Eldar fighters survive ordnance on a 4+, and are faster than Tau fighters, whom don't have this. (and shouldn't have this)
Tau bombers DO survive enemy ordnance (fighters) on a 4+, but are cumbersome? They are not protected from ship turrets afaik.
Eldar bombers were very, *very* hard to hit by enemy turrets,
I can presume that the above will end up implemented the same way, so it won't matter; "50% dodge" for all (what do you think Marine Thunderhawks will get.. )
Eldar bombers had another benefit: they could re-roll the "armor penetration".
In game, bombers are already given "lance" penetration (another reason why armor matters less..), Eldar bombers however go vs 0% armor instead. (or at least they did during the beta).
The result of this in BFG:
The Eldar solaris light cruiser has 1 launch bay. 3 lovely Eldar bombers/squad, each does 40 dmg. Total max damage: 120. The attack craft have 50% dodge, with crew skills this becomes 80% dodge. (why even bother with turrets.. )
The Chaos Hellbringer has 2 launch bays. 6 bombers total, each does 30 damage. Total max damage: 180. No 50% dodge. But wait, this 180 damage actually goes vs 25% armor. Meaning, average damage: 180 x 0.75= 135 damage.
BTW: both the Chaos and Eldar BB have 4 ordnance bays..

You know,
I've been wanting to try something "a little different": escort fleet with +3 turrets upgrade. 9 turrets each, group 4 of em up. Hi there, enemy ordnance. 36 turrets, that is two BB I think.
Also:
Eldar ships can outrun enemy ordnance; Chaos can use Tzeentch to re-stealth; Tau.. will have to eat the enemy bombs I think.

I of course don't know what the ship division of the Tau will be in-game, but largely they had weak shields, and/or weak hull points;
I think most noticeably: I do not expect them to bring a "Styx" battlecruiser; Tau had nothing in terms of "Battlecruiser", and I would not expect a 4-launchbays one to show up.
Their total ordnance output may well still dwarf chaos (bombers AND torpedo-missiles), however.
As a fleet, their escorts were pretty important; not very fast, but cheap, and limited by fleet ships.

I honestly think there are some parallels between the Tyranids & Tau:
"targetting" escort, "fighty escort" (/drone) limited by line ships, seeking missiles/turning boarding torpedoes; durable bombers vs lots of assault boats, mostly short-ish ranged firepower.
But only 1 race's ship bit your face off :D.

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MadDemiurg
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Re: How I would do the Tau + Allies

Postby MadDemiurg » 07 May 2016, 10:25

Eldar craft actually have 30% dodge (only torpedoes have 50%), so 60% at max pilots vs 30% of others, slightly less than 2x survivability.

I don't think there are going to be different saves for fighters and turrets, so I'd expect Tau bombers have same 30% base dodge, possibly with the same 30 damage vs 25 armour as most bombers.

And yeah, clumped up escorts with extra turrets can take out ordnance pretty well, but you can fire at smth else and escorts are not difficult to kill with other means. Also, BB has 21 turrets.

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Re: How I would do the Tau + Allies

Postby RedDevilCG » 08 May 2016, 05:24

I seem to recall that even though the Tau fighters were inferior to their Imperial counterparts technology wise, they still held their own due to the natural piloting skills and spatial cognition of the Air caste pilots.


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