How I would do the Tau + Allies

Discuss the Tau fleet. For the Greater Good!
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Kadaeux
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Re: How I would do the Tau + Allies

Postby Kadaeux » 02 May 2016, 00:00

Mournilg wrote:
ScinFaxi wrote:I'm not sure how you can compare a macro and rail at all. The frequency of the shots would make it perfect for skill shots.
A rail gun is entirely different to a macro cannon.

Sure they are both fast but the railgun is much faster and a different weapon entirely.


Macro batteries are different for every races. IN got big canons, Tau got Railguns, in TT rules it is explicitly said that rail guns are macro batteries equivalent, especially rail guns the size that are mounted on warships, they even explain that they require enormous amount of power to fire, routed to a single barrel at a time to ensure they are reloaded in the menatime before powering them again.


ScinFaxi wrote:Ion cannons fire at a much larger frequency so for the games perspective they should be similar to macro over lance in effect.

Also to note they don't behave like lances physically anyway. IE the fire amounts off the TT??


"Ion canon shot vaporize the object struck, magnifying the energy discharge. They function as lances in all respect" directly from TT rules.


Though I will give ScinFaxi, someone who isn't familiar with BFG could easily make that mistake. *shrugs*

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Mournilg
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Re: How I would do the Tau + Allies

Postby Mournilg » 02 May 2016, 00:15

Just so he knows the exact text and can understand why you described the weapon that way ^^
"Those with superior reach can dictate the terms of battle and impose their will upon their foe. Remember, the first step on the path to victory is often the most important." Commander Puretide

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Re: How I would do the Tau + Allies

Postby BrianDavion » 02 May 2016, 02:03

Tau Actually aren't as good defensivly. looking at a few IN and Tau ships compareitly..

Tau Custodian BB vs Imperial Retribution Battleship.

Hull: Retribution has 12 Hull, Custodian has 10 Hull
Speed: Same
Turn: Same
Shields: Retribution: 4, Custodian 3
Armor: Retribution +6 on nose/5+ elsewhere. Custodian: kinda the same expect that nose armor goes away with the first crit hit to the bow.
Turrets: Both Equal
Firepower: Retribution: 12 broadside firepower out to 60 cm, 3 dorsal firepower, prow mounted St 9 Torpedos.
Custodian: the custodian has 7 broadside firepower but can direct ALL of this forward. for a total of 14 firepower, it also has launch bays.

similer comparisons work on the lighter scales, the TLDR version is tau ships are weaker, having less hull and, in some cases weaker shields. Tau Have superior frontal firepower, but will lose out when the fight turns into a broadside slugging match. so no they're not "like the IN but better" they have some similarites but the differances are pretty important.

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Re: How I would do the Tau + Allies

Postby Mournilg » 02 May 2016, 09:33

BrianDavion wrote:Tau Actually aren't as good defensivly. looking at a few IN and Tau ships compareitly..

Tau Custodian BB vs Imperial Retribution Battleship.

Hull: Retribution has 12 Hull, Custodian has 10 Hull
Speed: Same
Turn: Same
Shields: Retribution: 4, Custodian 3
Armor: Retribution +6 on nose/5+ elsewhere. Custodian: kinda the same expect that nose armor goes away with the first crit hit to the bow.
Turrets: Both Equal
Firepower: Retribution: 12 broadside firepower out to 60 cm, 3 dorsal firepower, prow mounted St 9 Torpedos.
Custodian: the custodian has 7 broadside firepower but can direct ALL of this forward. for a total of 14 firepower, it also has launch bays.

similer comparisons work on the lighter scales, the TLDR version is tau ships are weaker, having less hull and, in some cases weaker shields. Tau Have superior frontal firepower, but will lose out when the fight turns into a broadside slugging match. so no they're not "like the IN but better" they have some similarites but the differances are pretty important.


Like Brian said, Tau combat philosophy is to have maximum firepower on the front and compensate their lighter hulls and shields by an absurb amount of firepower, they also count more on ordnances than IN, having rodnances on almost all their ships.
Remember they don't have teleport hit and run attacks too.
And last but not least, their frontal armor is 75 versus gunnery. Like Eldars, don't even think about ramming another ship with a tau ship unless you are 2 tonage higher ^^
"Those with superior reach can dictate the terms of battle and impose their will upon their foe. Remember, the first step on the path to victory is often the most important." Commander Puretide

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Re: How I would do the Tau + Allies

Postby Kadaeux » 02 May 2016, 10:57

Mournilg wrote:Like Brian said, Tau combat philosophy is to have maximum firepower on the front and compensate their lighter hulls and shields by an absurb amount of firepower, they also count more on ordnances than IN, having rodnances on almost all their ships.
Remember they don't have teleport hit and run attacks too.
And last but not least, their frontal armor is 75 versus gunnery. Like Eldars, don't even think about ramming another ship with a tau ship unless you are 2 tonage higher ^^


Aye, the Tau while they have a powerful frontal armament, they pay for that advantage in pretty weak broadsides. Though even their ordnance can be a pain in the rear.

The FW Tau Rules Custodian can launch 8 Squadrons (Same as the Emperor) But the 2010 Compendium version can only get 6 Out (But has a significant increase in firepower, 4 more points worth of railguns and double the missile payload.)

Where the Eldar have a "jousting" style, the Tau's lower speed (comparable to Orks and Imperium) can't afford to do that. I see them making a 'sweeping' run on enemies. Come in, unleash fire from as far as possible, then try and curve out to try and keep the distance. Carrier an Gravitic Launchers will be their main firepower, perhaps enough of one to push out Chaos as the Carrier-go-to fleet.

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Re: How I would do the Tau + Allies

Postby BrianDavion » 02 May 2016, 11:14

honestly Tau and IN match ups should be pretty intreasting, with the Tau focusing forward firepower as the IN closes, and the IN despirtly tries to close to broadside ranges.

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Re: How I would do the Tau + Allies

Postby MadDemiurg » 02 May 2016, 12:20

I feel like they might be OP vs IN and Chaos and UP vs Orks if they are implemented this way (massive prow firepower + lots of ordnance + 150 speed + somewhat weaker hulls), but we'll see.

Prow firepower (with decent range) makes it very easy to chase other fleets and also gives advantage in initial engagement since you don't need to turn to employ your broadside and it's easier to focus fire on one ship. So for Chaos, It's gonna be difficult to kite (more difficult than to kite IN at least) and difficult to use ordnance due to Tau carriers. For IN, they would likely take serious damage on approach and then suffer from focus fire, although I see ramming tactics being pretty effective.

Vs Orks tho.... Well, orks are weak to ordnance but once they are close to your low hull low ram resist ships.... gg.

Vs Eldar that would largely depend on how effective Tau ordnance will be against them, although by the time Tau are released some changes will be made there I suppose.

This is all just speculation however.

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Re: How I would do the Tau + Allies

Postby Kadaeux » 02 May 2016, 14:02

MadDemiurg wrote:I feel like they might be OP vs IN and Chaos and UP vs Orks if they are implemented this way (massive prow firepower + lots of ordnance + 150 speed + somewhat weaker hulls), but we'll see.


Not really, their strength is also their weakness. Their strong prow firepower and ordnance has one major flaw. They have to face the enemy head on. Their best Battleship's broadside power (ignoring carrier capacity) is basically the same as a Dauntless with 1 point of lance added.

Prow firepower (with decent range) makes it very easy to chase other fleets and also gives advantage in initial engagement since you don't need to turn to employ your broadside and it's easier to focus fire on one ship. So for Chaos, It's gonna be difficult to kite (more difficult than to kite IN at least) and difficult to use ordnance due to Tau carriers. For IN, they would likely take serious damage on approach and then suffer from focus fire, although I see ramming tactics being pretty effective.

Vs Orks tho.... Well, orks are weak to ordnance but once they are close to your low hull low ram resist ships.... gg.

Vs Eldar that would largely depend on how effective Tau ordnance will be against them, although by the time Tau are released some changes will be made there I suppose.

This is all just speculation however.


The strategy against Tau isn't to kite, not for Orks, Eldar, Chaos or Imperium. There's no point in playing kiting games with Tau as it favours the guys with lots of carriers. (Aka: The Tau.) Their poor speed means that once someone has caught up to them, they stay caught up, and only the Eldar have worse broadsides than the Tau.

Eldar are likely to have the greatest difficulty dealing with the Tau, mainly as they have the same 'prow on' issue, but without the slight broadside power the Tau have. (But due to Eldar speed, their jousting should still favour the Eldar.) Additionally, the Tau lack teleport ability, completely and utterly, and they don't have assault boats for their hangars either. So not only are they vulnerable to boarding, but they can't do it worth a damn either.

So while a Tau's forward firepower is virtually unequalled, if I use the 2010 Compendium's stats *which I didn't for this thread* then a Custodian has 12 Weapon Batteries worth of forward firepower or six on each broadside, *per turn* As well as either 2 forward lances or one on each side. As well as a Strength 8 Torpedo salvo and 6 Squadrons. It also has 10 hull and 3 shields.

The Emperor Class has meanwhile, 6 weapons batteries dedicated for port and starboard, and TEN more points of weapon batteries to allocate as it chooses. (22 Weapon Battery strength total, and all of them are longer-ranged than the Tau batteries) as well as 8 Squadrons it can put into the void, 12 hull and 4 shields. *It also has 1 more point-defence turret*

The two ships have the exact same amount of 'strength points' of firepower. But the Emperor can put 2 more squadrons into space, is less likely to suffer if a Reload Ordnance failed badly. (If the Emperor "ran out" it'd lose it's 8 squadrons, but the Custodian would lose it's 6 squadrons AND it's Gravitic Launcher)

These two ships are very very close to being equals, but if the Emperor got close to the Custodian and forced it into a game of broadsides, the Custodian could bring a mere 7 points of firepower onto the Emperor, while the Emperor could sling at it with 16 points of firepower per turn. As such, odds are that, normally, in a broadside matchup (if we ignore carrier capacity for now) that not only could the Emperor destroy the Custodian, but it's unlikely the Custodian could even successfully get past the Emperor's shields.


Assuming 15cm range engagement, moving abeam "with" each other.

Custodian: 1 Lance shot with a 4+, and 3 dice for a 5+ even assuming every single dice rolled a hit, that just brings down the Emperor's shields and inflicts no damage at all.

Emperor: 8 dice aiming for a 5+, if only half the dice hit then not only are the Custodians shields down, but it took a hit of damage, which rolls 1d6, and on a 6 causes a critical hit. (Which is 2d6 vs the Critical Hits table) If every single dice hit (since we're assuming a scenario where the Custodian does, it's only fair) Then not only did the shields go down, but the Custodian was blown half away with a single salvo, with 5d6 chances at a critical hit. (And with 5d6, the odds of not rolling a six are probably pretty damned low :p less than one percent i'd guess.)



So yes, the Tau have pretty fearful forward armament, but when someone catches up to them (and since they would have to turn frequently to get the most out of their firepower it is when, not if) then anyone who catches up intact enough to begin playing broadside games is going to own the field of battle.

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Re: How I would do the Tau + Allies

Postby MadDemiurg » 02 May 2016, 14:08

Well, I'm speaking from extensive MP experience in the current game, not how it would play out in TT. Prow firepower is better than broadside firepower in a brawl especially if you have 75 frotal armour. Ork ships with mega cannons have terrible broadsides (effectively none), but they brawl really really well, because they do not need to turn and focus fire really well (would be even easier with higher range ships). Well, they also ram very well, which Tau won't be able to, but Tau will have more range and tons of ordnance for addtional burst.

I would take a ship with 1000 hull, 300 shields, 14 prow dps and 4 launchbays over a ship with 1200 hull, 400 shields, 12 broadside dps and torpedoes if that's what it would roughly look like in game.

VS current Eldar, Tau would just melt to pulsar lacking mobility and effective long range weaponry. Would greatly depend on wheter their bombers and smart missiles are worth a damn vs Eldar. But as I said, Eldar will likely face some changes by the time Tau are out.

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Re: How I would do the Tau + Allies

Postby Kadaeux » 02 May 2016, 14:29

MadDemiurg wrote:Well, I'm speaking from extensive MP experience in the current game, not how it would play out in TT. Prow firepower is better than broadside firepower in a brawl especially if you have 75 frotal armour.


The biggest catch is.

The Tau (assuming as we are that it'd carry over more or less comparing tabletop stats etc) only have that Frontal Armour if they haven't suffered a prow critical. And, the Custodian (continuing our example) ANY weapon critical except for the Launch Bays (I don't see the Gravitic Hooks being included as a crit-able system.) will be a prow critical. And once that happens, their deflector is down, they're stuck with 50 armour front like everyone else.

Though you're the only person i've ever seen seriously arguing that PRow firepower is better than broadside, or that armour means anything in a brawl anymore :p


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