Tau need a lot of Changes

Discuss the Tau fleet. For the Greater Good!
Aquilar
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Re: Tau need a lot of Changes

Postby Aquilar » 07 October 2016, 13:24

Well there goes stealing data using the XV-46 in the latest patch.

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Imperator5
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Re: Tau need a lot of Changes

Postby Imperator5 » 08 October 2016, 18:55

Tau are perfectly balanced as a stock fleet, but the upgrades and favours are too much. Its them that cause the trouble not the Tau ships themselves.
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

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Ahzek Ahriman
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Re: Tau need a lot of Changes

Postby Ahzek Ahriman » 08 October 2016, 21:31

Imperator5 wrote:Tau are perfectly balanced as a stock fleet, but the upgrades and favours are too much. Its them that cause the trouble not the Tau ships themselves.


Fully agree, they have imo the best upgrades and favours in the game. Chaos and SM coming close behind in favours (minus to SM for limited access, but they work well for them) and everyone far behind in upgrades.

The only thing I'd want to have changed in stock ships is turning rate. It's ridiculous as it is now, Tau are supposed to be forward firing, weak-at-cc faction but with this turning rate it's impossible to outmanoeuvre them up close, they will always face you whenever they want, unless outnumbered only.

And I'm talking as a Chaos player, with fast but still fairly resillient ships. What are IN/Orks supposed to do? Nevermind SM whose weapons suck anyway and Eldar who shouldn't come close in the first place.
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Hallbregg
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Re: Tau need a lot of Changes

Postby Hallbregg » 08 October 2016, 22:04

I would change the turret range upg to +2k or +1k, the experimental railgun to not bypass shield, and increase the cooldown of the repair drones or the duration. With that I feel Tau would be pretty balanced.

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MadDemiurg
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Re: Tau need a lot of Changes

Postby MadDemiurg » 09 October 2016, 00:55

To outrun even a 10 degree turn rate at 3k you'll need ~520 speed. Tau turn speed is absolutely irrelevant for flanking, you can't even outrun ork turn speed this way. You flank them just like you would flank anyone else - by attacking from two angles. I've actually faced a few players who did that (in Tau vs Tau too) and it worked very well. And no, you don't need to outnumber them. You just need at least two ships and it's impossible for Tau to keep all their ships facing all your ships with their prows if you attack from 2 sides. If you're just blindly throwing all your ships in a frontal attack you deserve to lose (if you're not an Ork).

The only 2 setups that feel bit unfair in MP to me so far:
-Railgun spam (depends on the opponent, orks don't give a damn). A lot of suggestions revolve around making it non shield piercing, but it would still be OP vs Eldar and quite bad vs everyone else losing its role as an artillery weapon (the only use would be at close range after knocking down shields with smth else). I'd rather increase the delay to 3-4s and show an indicator where it's gonna fire.
-Water caste turtling with stealth alloy. Tbh the root problem is cruiser clash which allows turtling/infinite kiting, but to fix that I'd suggest making it work for maybe first 5 minutes of the game. Changing the call in to weaker wardens would help too (but wardens need +100 hp).

Also:
-Kroot spheres are bad
-Kroot/Demiurg "BB" too expensive to upgrade
-Gravihook ships are kinda gimped (because Wardens are bad), Custodian is decent only because of its impressive launchbay capacity and needs dhows anyway. Wardens need 200 hp and there needs to be an option not to bring any escorts on gravihooks (for a price drop). In some situations escorts are more of a nuisance than help.

As for Tau upgrades - Tau are missing quite a few strong upgrades like Targeting matrix, AP, launchbay CD. Out of their own unique upgrades the only one that actually feels gamechanging is 75 frontal shield armour. It's still perfectly counterable though if you know what you're doing. I'd trade any of the LB upgrades for CD and stealth alloy for camo (outside of abuses).

Aquilar
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Re: Tau need a lot of Changes

Postby Aquilar » 09 October 2016, 01:43

MadDemiurg wrote:The only 2 setups that feel bit unfair in MP to me so far:
-Railgun spam (depends on the opponent, orks don't give a damn). A lot of suggestions revolve around making it non shield piercing, but it would still be OP vs Eldar and quite bad vs everyone else losing its role as an artillery weapon (the only use would be at close range after knocking down shields with smth else). I'd rather increase the delay to 3-4s and show an indicator where it's gonna fire.
-Water caste turtling with stealth alloy. Tbh the root problem is cruiser clash which allows turtling/infinite kiting, but to fix that I'd suggest making it work for maybe first 5 minutes of the game. Changing the call in to weaker wardens would help too (but wardens need +100 hp).


Eldar is easily fixed, just give them 100 shield points and be done with it, as much as the implication sounds, relying solely on ECM and speed will never protect you from some just shooting and throwing explosives in your general direction. (This issue plagued TT until the fan community straight changed the rules for the Eldar so they were so much less broken.)

so there's two choice now, buff wardens and make them the call in, or give water caste ship extended sensor range for a short duration.

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MadDemiurg
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Re: Tau need a lot of Changes

Postby MadDemiurg » 09 October 2016, 09:56

Aquilar wrote:
MadDemiurg wrote:The only 2 setups that feel bit unfair in MP to me so far:
-Railgun spam (depends on the opponent, orks don't give a damn). A lot of suggestions revolve around making it non shield piercing, but it would still be OP vs Eldar and quite bad vs everyone else losing its role as an artillery weapon (the only use would be at close range after knocking down shields with smth else). I'd rather increase the delay to 3-4s and show an indicator where it's gonna fire.
-Water caste turtling with stealth alloy. Tbh the root problem is cruiser clash which allows turtling/infinite kiting, but to fix that I'd suggest making it work for maybe first 5 minutes of the game. Changing the call in to weaker wardens would help too (but wardens need +100 hp).


Eldar is easily fixed, just give them 100 shield points and be done with it, as much as the implication sounds, relying solely on ECM and speed will never protect you from some just shooting and throwing explosives in your general direction. (This issue plagued TT until the fan community straight changed the rules for the Eldar so they were so much less broken.)

so there's two choice now, buff wardens and make them the call in, or give water caste ship extended sensor range for a short duration.


Well, another option would be for Eldar holofields to reduce AoE damage from stuff like rails, novas and bombs (bombs are easy tot dodge though so I wouldn't like seeing them nerfed vs Eldar further). And 100 shield would still mean they need 1 railgun to knock it off.

E.g. Tau brings 5 railguns (max they can do in 700 pt). Let's say they do 100 damage like previously for simplicity. If all 5 hit that's 400 damage vs 400 hull ship. Eldar LC dead. Or 200 damage vs 300 shield (with +100 shields upg) cruiser. Not That impressive with their 180 sec cd. Imo Tau railguns need to perform a role of long range atrillery that can hurt the fast races and force them to fight the Tau, otherwise only air caste would be viable vs kiting fleets. But they need to be less brutal vs low health races like Eldar, SM or Tau themselves.

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Re: Tau need a lot of Changes

Postby Beernchips » 09 October 2016, 12:29

Eldat with shields? nice idea foreldar players,like that you can regen between runs, no more insta beacon on your hull, no more insta lightning strikes. Quite sure non Eldars players will be happy with that...
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Re: Tau need a lot of Changes

Postby Aquilar » 09 October 2016, 14:35

Beernchips wrote:Eldat with shields? nice idea foreldar players,like that you can regen between runs, no more insta beacon on your hull, no more insta lightning strikes. Quite sure non Eldars players will be happy with that...


IN have their detection and long range guns.
Orks have their lolwut Zapp cannons and infinite range lighting strike
Chaos can still taunt.
SM can keep up with Eldar.
And they all have torpedos.

the only ones getting screwed over is tau because of their lack of counters.

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Bosie
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Re: Tau need a lot of Changes

Postby Bosie » 09 October 2016, 16:44

Aquilar wrote:
Beernchips wrote:Eldat with shields? nice idea foreldar players,like that you can regen between runs, no more insta beacon on your hull, no more insta lightning strikes. Quite sure non Eldars players will be happy with that...


IN have their detection and long range guns.
Orks have their lolwut Zapp cannons and infinite range lighting strike
Chaos can still taunt.
SM can keep up with Eldar.
And they all have torpedos.

the only ones getting screwed over is tau because of their lack of counters.


??? Chaos can taunt? I main Chaos and the only taunting I can do is with words whilst playing.

Imps long range guns... Chaos are the long range fleet. A few Imp ships can be pushed to 15k, but they ain't accurate unlike the 100% hit chance of Chaos 15k lances.

The only thing that can keep up with an Eldar, is another Eldar. Yeah SM LCs can keep up with with the bigger Eldar ships, unless of course the Eldar uses his boost. But let's not think that SM LCs are just large escorts.

Chaos have torps on their BB and a couple of escorts, shitty torps at that.
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