Tau - any weaknesses?

Discuss the Tau fleet. For the Greater Good!
Alaric
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Re: Tau - any weaknesses?

Postby Alaric » 04 October 2016, 09:50

I must admit that, even though I am delighted with the Tau fleet, they are really, really powerful.

For quite a long time I did a Chaos fleet, full Khorne (because it looks so cool). Lost a lot of games, but it was really fun to play. Still played the usual long range Lance fleet, with few light carriers, but they could defend themselves instead of running away (i hate kitting, it is boring).

Did also a SM fleet, because who doesn't want to spam chainsword-wielding robocops armies through boarding torpedoes and boarding gunships ? I did quite better with these, but not much. Had much greater success with Imperial Navy brawling fleet, much easier to play.

And then come the Tau. Oh boy, I LOVE these guys. Well, first I love their design, their lore, loved them in Dawn of War, anyway even if UP I would still play them.

What a surprise that was! With other races, I usually win about 1 game out of 3, but with Tau yesterday evening, won about 12 games out of 15. So yes, they are really strong. But I also think they just appeal more to my playstyle, since I won a lot also against other Tau players. Big victories, like, "no capital ships loose more than half life, but the enemy looses everything" victory.

I play them the way they should : Get a screen of escorts between you and your ennemy. Use massive firepower while the hostile fleet is engaged. If needed, pull back just a little. Upgrade your escorts. And of course, full Water Caste to get some tanks for your cruisers / light cruisers.

Also tried the Stronghold in 2v2. Started alone on one corner of the map (asteroid fieeeeld :D). My ally got engaged and slaughetered by the 2 SM fleets. I only got there at the end of the fight. But man, this Stronghold just slaughtered these SM ships. To be fair, they played pretty badly, circling around my Stronghold at between 3-6k (what a mistake that was ahah). Solo-ed a whole armada of SM ships with that Demiurg behemoth :)

I'm not saying Tau are OP or UP. Just came here to say I am happy with how they play. I love having a lot of expendable escorts, and being able to summon more is great (though I would like, design-wise, to be able to summon more warden through Water Case because they look rad). Long/mid-range gameplay is finally possible (sorry, Chaos, I'll have to leave you). Gravitic hooks are a great thing. Tau ships are gorgeous. The animation for their jumps, railgun salvos etc... is perfect.

Do I win more with them because they are stronger, or because I can finally play the way I want to play ? Or a little of both ? I don't know. But please, don't make them utterly UP because people complain on the forum, because they have not -yet- perfected strategies to counter them.

PS: Pleaaaase can you make the warden escorts have the same color as the favour of the "towing" ship ? I always have mono-favor fleets because of graphic homogeneity. I think it is planned, but just saying. Thank you :D

Leomark
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Re: Tau - any weaknesses?

Postby Leomark » 09 October 2016, 05:02

@ Alaric - To confirm your not saying Tau are OP but with a win streak of roughly 4-5 per loss then what are they then? Reasonably balanced with broken upgrades that trump favours? What other faction can boast those rough statistics? I also enjoyed your argument about developing new strategies for dealing with Tau. Why that's exactly what people were saying to others about the late NOVA spam imperials. Have full Tzeench fleet - Have probe fleet - Have any number of specific load out on your fleet to beat the current meta argument is folly. Not to mention you often need a specific fleet to fight each faction and so what? I need 6 different set-up's to have an advantage against each fleet? I can only have one fleet and ONE set up. What if I plan to fight Tau or Eldar and end up with orks? Can my set up beat orks? I sure hope so, if not I'm done - I cant likely win as I have an disadvantage because I prepared to face a specific faction that fights a specific way.

You should not be punished because your not following the meta. Are you going to have a disadvantage? Of course, but I don't want to make my chaos Khorne fleet a full on Tzeench lance kite fleet because of the broken Tau and I say broken with purpose since - They are the best at ranged combat and even more so at close range since their accuracy scales up the closer you get - Are very durable despite their low Hull pools - Their deflector's can only be destroyed by shooting at the weapon hard points and often you don't get the critical damage to the deflector - And finally turn so quickly that you never can get behind them. A well microed Tau fleet will almost never be surrounded. And what happened to Tau being the worst at close combat? They have a standard 60 troop value and Eldar has 50? Wut?

I do however agree with you about not wanting them nerfed into oblivion - I do enjoy this faction for its different style of play, however there are NO weaknesses. None. Go vs the Tau Alaric as a faction different from the Tau. Go see how hopeless it is unless you have a specific fleet to beat them. Go enjoy hidden stealth reinforce fleets. Go enjoy seeker missile spam and Tau probes. Try and brawl with them. And then once you understand that they are broken in some aspects come back here and tell me how it went. What was your win loss ratio now? And btw try it with Eldar. Watch as you hurt them with pulsars and torpedoes and then when they spot you with probes watch as they flay you at 9k range. You'll be forced to warp out unless you want to waste your ships.

Tau are great but need to be balanced. Hidden reinforce fleet. What were they thinking in the beta..

Beernchips
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Re: Tau - any weaknesses?

Postby Beernchips » 09 October 2016, 08:12

They are the best at ranged combat and even more so at close range since their accuracy scales up the closer you get


Explain to me how a fleet with max range of 9k and standard accuracy is "best at ranged combat"?. They are exactly the same as ranged combat except for Chaos lance because they don t rely on accuracy. The only way to be better is Kauyon + range upgrades but you will have to sacrifice either tanking or turret upgrades because you can t have 10 upgrades on your ship.
Also for close range, The Kor or veshfleet WAS NOT bad to defend boarding, itwas the GWfleet that had 50% defence reduction. Boarding is NOT melee fights when you are in hundred miles long ships and fire warriors + drones can defend a boarding team with defensive set ups position around critical sustems
For turrets it is 4 to 6 DPS mitigated by armor .Main strength is to stack on all ships and range and for every upgraded ship unike nurgle favor.

however there are NO weaknesses


They are useless vs long range artillery fleet because too slow and enemy will kite
When Orks or IN goes in melee they are totally wiped outbecause double broadsides/ram/boarding will melt them. Even Chaos nurgle/Slaanesh Slaughter make a short work of Tau

Go enjoy seeker missile spam and Tau probes

30 damages not bypass armor with so low turning rate they turn around you if they didn t hit first time? Also if you are detected at long range juts go hidden? CC is 20 min long you don t have ti rush and win game in 5 min if you are in a bad position

The main balance to be addressed are :
Hidden water cast
Mass Earth cast spam
75 armor shield and deflector used in ramming calculation
Repair drones

To compensate those nefs,
- Seeker missiles shouldhave +100% turning rate
- Tau should have way to rally (fighting for greater good means you are aware to be sacrificed for it)
- Auxiliaries should have access to favor (at least water and fire it is common to have fire warriors fighting alongside auxiliares) or specific favors
Repent, for tomorrow you die

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Imperator5
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Re: Tau - any weaknesses?

Postby Imperator5 » 09 October 2016, 09:14

I would add Seekers to that list of upgrades and favours that imbalances the Tau.
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

Please help me change skirmish to be customisable. Its very important for PVE players.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=515 Mod idea.

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MadDemiurg
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Re: Tau - any weaknesses?

Postby MadDemiurg » 09 October 2016, 09:41

Seekers are only 4 dps raw at 3k for 12 turret ship now and need two upgrades to be fully functional. AP ammo adds 2.4 dps for a 12 dps macro ship at 3k. Which means it's better vs anything with 50 armour or more, where seekers would drop to 2 dps. It also doesn't force you to take a 2nd upgrade to be viable. And to use seekers you need to brawl at 3k, something Tau fleet doesn't really want to do unless absolutely needed in the first place.

I didn't see any good seeker builds since beta, it's mostly shields + launchbay upgrades + usual stuff like order duration/belt armour now.

Leomark
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Re: Tau - any weaknesses?

Postby Leomark » 09 October 2016, 11:17

@ Beernchips -
They are the best at ranged combat and even more so at close range since their accuracy scales up the closer you get


Explain to me how a fleet with max range of 9k and standard accuracy is "best at ranged combat"?. They are exactly the same as ranged combat except for Chaos lance because they don t rely on accuracy. The only way to be better is Kauyon + range upgrades but you will have to sacrifice either tanking or turret upgrades because you can t have 10 upgrades on your ship.


Ok well for one its not all about DPM or DPS but the WHOLE package that defines my quote. With one upgrade you have 12k range and another 15k through special orders that affects 90% of your firepower on the Tau battleship. Every 8 seconds the Tau battleship fires 24 shots for a total of 96 potential damage, each with 1% crit chance. Excluding chances increased by crew which all factions have access to. Each shot with the Mont'ka battle tactic now has 4% crit chance rather then one. And for your information the Retribution imperial battleship's macro cannon only has a 3.75% crit chance per shot every 12 seconds. And further more only fires 12 of those shots, while its competition in the Tau navy fires double that. Thus significantly more chance to pop subsystems and wreck your ship.

And as for Kauyon battle tactic, every 3k range you are from your target you get 5% accuracy increase if you stay hidden. And with probes you can easily do that while you send your escorts (which you will have plenty of) to tie up and delay the enemy. You have some 20-25% increase of accuracy meaning your not shooting at 20% at 12k your shooting at 40%. - While if your imperial you need to have two upgrades one for 12k range like the Tau do and another for increased accuracy at 12k to 40% while the Tau only really need one. Need I say more? So if you play accordingly you have an advantage both ways. Increased accuracy that trumps any other faction with Kauyon and increased lethality at close range with Mont'ka. Obviously Mont'ka is more potent since more crit chance is crazy and void combat is often close range affair's. To make that even worse! Fighting eldar you are the hard counter to them with lots of shots being sent out so more chance to go through their holofield and since their fragile 'trait' your chances are double to damage so that's what 8% chance to crit a subsystem per shot?

Later you mentioned there are some weaknesses vs specific fleet set ups. Well I'll mention some of my own 'specific' fleet set ups that counter your's. Stealth water cast fleet are perfect for building up a death ball of escort ships to steam roll any fleet. Use that, it rarely fails. Fire warrior favour and crew points in etherial + defence turret upgrades allow a nurgle like ability with the durability in troop value. Space out your fleet some, focus down the nurgle ships and you win. Easy as. Not to mention etherial stops the whiny blue bloods from running so double + there to counter slanesh fleets. More troop value and almost no chance to run.

Go enjoy seeker missile spam and Tau probes

30 damages not bypass armor with so low turning rate they turn around you if they didn t hit first time? Also if you are detected at long range juts go hidden? CC is 20 min long you don t have ti rush and win game in 5 min if you are in a bad position


Lastly you mentioned how they don't go through armour when hitting a ship. Do you also know they don't explode on friendly Tau ships? Like they just clip through and keep on going and will eventually hit the target ship no matter what? Yes you can often dodge the first volley. But they are the best at breaking up fleet formation. Not to mention many Tau ships get seeker missiles so their quite plentiful.

Tau turn rates need to be looked at and decreased. A cruiser turning as fast as a light cruiser? Wtf. Decrease turn rates and you'll start to see more damage done and smarter less death ball like formations from Tau players

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MadDemiurg
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Re: Tau - any weaknesses?

Postby MadDemiurg » 09 October 2016, 12:21

Leomark wrote:@ Beernchips -
They are the best at ranged combat and even more so at close range since their accuracy scales up the closer you get


Explain to me how a fleet with max range of 9k and standard accuracy is "best at ranged combat"?. They are exactly the same as ranged combat except for Chaos lance because they don t rely on accuracy. The only way to be better is Kauyon + range upgrades but you will have to sacrifice either tanking or turret upgrades because you can t have 10 upgrades on your ship.


Ok well for one its not all about DPM or DPS but the WHOLE package that defines my quote. With one upgrade you have 12k range and another 15k through special orders that affects 90% of your firepower on the Tau battleship. Every 8 seconds the Tau battleship fires 24 shots for a total of 96 potential damage, each with 1% crit chance. Excluding chances increased by crew which all factions have access to. Each shot with the Mont'ka battle tactic now has 4% crit chance rather then one. And for your information the Retribution imperial battleship's macro cannon only has a 3.75% crit chance per shot every 12 seconds. And further more only fires 12 of those shots, while its competition in the Tau navy fires double that. Thus significantly more chance to pop subsystems and wreck your ship.

And as for Kauyon battle tactic, every 3k range you are from your target you get 5% accuracy increase if you stay hidden. And with probes you can easily do that while you send your escorts (which you will have plenty of) to tie up and delay the enemy. You have some 20-25% increase of accuracy meaning your not shooting at 20% at 12k your shooting at 40%. - While if your imperial you need to have two upgrades one for 12k range like the Tau do and another for increased accuracy at 12k to 40% while the Tau only really need one. Need I say more? So if you play accordingly you have an advantage both ways. Increased accuracy that trumps any other faction with Kauyon and increased lethality at close range with Mont'ka. Obviously Mont'ka is more potent since more crit chance is crazy and void combat is often close range affair's. To make that even worse! Fighting eldar you are the hard counter to them with lots of shots being sent out so more chance to go through their holofield and since their fragile 'trait' your chances are double to damage so that's what 8% chance to crit a subsystem per shot?

Later you mentioned there are some weaknesses vs specific fleet set ups. Well I'll mention some of my own 'specific' fleet set ups that counter your's. Stealth water cast fleet are perfect for building up a death ball of escort ships to steam roll any fleet. Use that, it rarely fails. Fire warrior favour and crew points in etherial + defence turret upgrades allow a nurgle like ability with the durability in troop value. Space out your fleet some, focus down the nurgle ships and you win. Easy as. Not to mention etherial stops the whiny blue bloods from running so double + there to counter slanesh fleets. More troop value and almost no chance to run.

Go enjoy seeker missile spam and Tau probes

30 damages not bypass armor with so low turning rate they turn around you if they didn t hit first time? Also if you are detected at long range juts go hidden? CC is 20 min long you don t have ti rush and win game in 5 min if you are in a bad position


Lastly you mentioned how they don't go through armour when hitting a ship. Do you also know they don't explode on friendly Tau ships? Like they just clip through and keep on going and will eventually hit the target ship no matter what? Yes you can often dodge the first volley. But they are the best at breaking up fleet formation. Not to mention many Tau ships get seeker missiles so their quite plentiful.

Tau turn rates need to be looked at and decreased. A cruiser turning as fast as a light cruiser? Wtf. Decrease turn rates and you'll start to see more damage done and smarter less death ball like formations from Tau players


Dude, to put it bluntly, you have no idea how stuff works and should not be arguing balance.

-Mont'ka does not quadruple crit chance. (look up how it actually works, it's the same as SM surgical strike)
-Seeker missiles do damage your own ship. I doubt you even play them if you don't know that.

Beernchips
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Re: Tau - any weaknesses?

Postby Beernchips » 09 October 2016, 12:42

And as for Kauyon battle tactic, every 3k range you are from your target you get 5% accuracy increase if you stay hidden. And with probes you can easily do that while you send your escorts (which you will have plenty of) to tie up and delay the enemy. You have some 20-25% increase of accuracy meaning your not shooting at 20% at 12k your shooting at 40%. - While if your imperial you need to have two upgrades one for 12k range like the Tau do and another for increased accuracy at 12k to 40% while the Tau only really need one. Need I say more? So if you play accordingly you have an advantage both ways. Increased accuracy that trumps any other faction with Kauyon and increased lethality at close range with Mont'ka. Obviously Mont'ka is more potent since more crit chance is crazy and void combat is often close range affair's. To make that even worse! Fighting eldar you are the hard counter to them with lots of shots being sent out so more chance to go through their holofield and since their fragile 'trait' your chances are double to damage so that's what 8% chance to crit a subsystem per shot?


So 2 upgrades + special order+warfare to have something like 20 to 40% accuracy between 12k and 15k for macro (so armor reduction) for 45 seconds.
Do you see a lot of IN using targetting matrix + range macro upgrade to have a retribution firing at 15k range? No, because it is suboptimal and will never stop a fleet to reach you or outgun you with 12k lances builds
ANd btw you can t have Mont ka and Kauyon so no increased accuracy and TV reduction + better crit aiming at same time

Before speak, you should try to look at real maths and see what goes on.

Decrease turn rates and you'll start to see more damage done and smarter less death ball like formations from Tau players


Except deathball and packing is the way Tau are to be played. They are not hunters splitting and flanking, they go in position, sit and fire with superior firepower hoping to kill enemy before he reaches them. If you look at numbers, it is NOT railguns that are dealing heavy damages vs Orks/IN it is bombers and you don t have enough firepower to totally stop a IN/Ork fleet rushing at you, because when they are in the middle of your formations they will wreck you.
I won t do the maths for every ship but
Sa cea : 1+1 DPS lance / 3 + 3 dps macro / 3 dps missiles
Dauntless : 2 dps turret / 4+4 dps macro / 3 dps lance or 4 dps torp
Dauntless have more power but you need to use 3 different sides whle Sa cea bring all fire in prow arc. If IN try to outgun Tau with 1 broadside sitting at 6 k range he will lose (less fire + 50 armor vs 75 tau prow), if IN can use both broadsides (so basicle have Tau in left and right, no need to use HET to have both) he will brings more damages.
Oh, IN have 75 prow armor exactly for those situations when he have to close the range without suffering high damages.
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MadDemiurg
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Re: Tau - any weaknesses?

Postby MadDemiurg » 09 October 2016, 13:26

Also, when comparing dps, everyone's conveniently forgetting Tau have 200 less health and their cruisers are some of the most expensive in the game in their class.

VS Tau gunline it's like Beernchips says - go in between their ships to use double broadsides + expose rear armour of at least some of their ships (if you're a brawler). Some close range torp salvos would help break their formation too (fighter screens usually are too slow to do anything at this range), their ships are really wide and easy to hit with all torps frontally and if they expose their broadside - ram/shoot as normally.

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Ashardalon
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Re: Tau - any weaknesses?

Postby Ashardalon » 09 October 2016, 14:44

can confirm nurgle brawlers just melt tau
chaos can boost past and start shooting in their ass and being as wide as they are, 3x high energy turn 180° = one big self ramming mess
forcing you to do more complicated maneuvers to turn, taking a lot more time
they have a pretty simple playstyle, with simply making a wall of macros, making them strong
but definitely counterable
still would like to see their troop value decreases a little
in lore what little there is written about their ship interior describes barely any defensive emplacements and hallways that arent measured out to outpace a grenade trow (makes sense tau cant throw very far and you cant really make your hallways safe vs a grenadelauncher) and tau tech isnt really built to last 1000s of years their computers being a lot easier to smash then a cogitator as tau can simply replace those parts instead of praying and hoping it will work again(although that book is from the perspective of a civvie dont remember which book)
and tabletop(regular 40k not BFG) tau where never very good at defence their tactics often built around not having to defend
tau crew should definitely be strong on the offence but i would like to see them a bit weaker on the defensive side


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