Demiurg ships favor removal

Discuss the Tau fleet. For the Greater Good!
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MadDemiurg
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Re: Demiurg ships favor removal

Postby MadDemiurg » 30 September 2016, 10:38

Sir A Harris wrote:
MadDemiurg wrote:
Sir A Harris wrote:its upgrades cost the same as any other battleship, so thats fine as is


It's not as good as any other battleship though, not even close. Upgrading it for ranked seems like a total waste of renown.
And Kroot warsphere being treated as BB in terms of costs is kinda ridiculous in terms of power level.



Stronghold is just as good as any battleship, it has the firepower and health, the kroot is a battleship but seriosuly cheap in terms of points cost, not gonna lie mate, but renown isn't a problem, im sitting with just under 60k in skirmish while I work my way up to 100 in elite mode with tau


Renown is pointless in SP and progression MP, it's just a grind. I'm speaking about ranked Mp where you have fixed 8k renown to upgrade your fleet. It's just not worth it, you'd rather upgrade a more powerful ship for that cost. Stronghold has less health than most BBs, is prone to running away without you being able to stop it, lacks favours, crew and good damage upgrades and is one of the slowest BBs in the game making it a questionable investment in many MUs, esp for 2400 renown if you want to fully upgrade it.

If you just play SP, you won't see the problem, you just have to grind a bit longer.
Last edited by MadDemiurg on 30 September 2016, 10:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Ashardalon
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Re: Demiurg ships favor removal

Postby Ashardalon » 30 September 2016, 10:41

i think he is more worried about ranked balance than your skirmish points
seems fair to me too make them cost BC renown prices instead of BS
as is now would anyone equip those ships for ranked? especially the demiurg that wont lvl up among pure lvl10 fleets?
8000 renown is not going to get you far
fully upgrading 2 SM BB's thats basically all you need, 2 kroot spheres... not so much

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Alexi_Menser
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Re: Demiurg ships favor removal

Postby Alexi_Menser » 30 September 2016, 10:43

Sir A Harris wrote:
MadDemiurg wrote:
Sir A Harris wrote:its upgrades cost the same as any other battleship, so thats fine as is


It's not as good as any other battleship though, not even close. Upgrading it for ranked seems like a total waste of renown.
And Kroot warsphere being treated as BB in terms of costs is kinda ridiculous in terms of power level.



Stronghold is just as good as any battleship, it has the firepower and health, the kroot is a battleship but seriosuly cheap in terms of points cost, not gonna lie mate, but renown isn't a problem, im sitting with just under 60k in skirmish while I work my way up to 100 in elite mode with tau


Just going to add my 2 cents here. I think the issue being made is that the Kroot Warsphere and Demiurg Battleship have too high renown costs for Ranked Matches, where the excessively large cost of their upgrades makes them impractical to upgrade when you consider the vastly limited renown compared to the unlimited amount in skirmish.
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Sir A Harris
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Re: Demiurg ships favor removal

Postby Sir A Harris » 30 September 2016, 11:20

Alexi_Menser wrote:
Sir A Harris wrote:
MadDemiurg wrote:
It's not as good as any other battleship though, not even close. Upgrading it for ranked seems like a total waste of renown.
And Kroot warsphere being treated as BB in terms of costs is kinda ridiculous in terms of power level.



Stronghold is just as good as any battleship, it has the firepower and health, the kroot is a battleship but seriosuly cheap in terms of points cost, not gonna lie mate, but renown isn't a problem, im sitting with just under 60k in skirmish while I work my way up to 100 in elite mode with tau


Just going to add my 2 cents here. I think the issue being made is that the Kroot Warsphere and Demiurg Battleship have too high renown costs for Ranked Matches, where the excessively large cost of their upgrades makes them impractical to upgrade when you consider the vastly limited renown compared to the unlimited amount in skirmish.


Ranked yeah, unranked, still fine :P
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Re: Demiurg ships favor removal

Postby Perturabo-Liberal » 30 September 2016, 12:02

Oh, wow.
Alexi_Menser wrote:
Point well made Perturabo. I'll see if I can get this point noticed by the developers for consideration.

Ideally, what do you think would be the ideal balance change? And if you have multiple ideas please mention them.


I can think of several off the top of my head. They could allow us to fit water cast once again. If the intent was to nerf the demiurg - just remove the ability to call in nicassars. It's probably the easiest to do. Alternatively they could give Tau auxiliaries an equivalent of Rally! or chained squig. This is probably not ideal though, since from what I can tell upgrades and skills are universal for all faction ships, therefore some would have to be replaced. Or it could be fearless like space marines right untill it reaches 30% HP, at which point it automatically tries to disengage. That would be fine too, I suppose.

MadDemiurg wrote:Has anyone tested if you can cancel it with Rally?


That's the problem - Tau have Rally! replaced by repair drones.

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Sir A Harris
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Re: Demiurg ships favor removal

Postby Sir A Harris » 30 September 2016, 13:03

Perturabo-Liberal wrote:Oh, wow.


MadDemiurg wrote:Has anyone tested if you can cancel it with Rally?


That's the problem - Tau have Rally! replaced by repair drones.



wait, repair drones are gone o.o
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Perturabo-Liberal
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Re: Demiurg ships favor removal

Postby Perturabo-Liberal » 30 September 2016, 13:20

Sir A Harris wrote:
Perturabo-Liberal wrote:Oh, wow.


MadDemiurg wrote:Has anyone tested if you can cancel it with Rally?


That's the problem - Tau have Rally! replaced by repair drones.



wait, repair drones are gone o.o


Nope, still there:
Image
In the exact same slot where Rally! is for other factions, too.

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Alexi_Menser
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Re: Demiurg ships favor removal

Postby Alexi_Menser » 30 September 2016, 13:20

Perturabo-Liberal wrote:Oh, wow.
Alexi_Menser wrote:
Point well made Perturabo. I'll see if I can get this point noticed by the developers for consideration.

Ideally, what do you think would be the ideal balance change? And if you have multiple ideas please mention them.


I can think of several off the top of my head. They could allow us to fit water cast once again. If the intent was to nerf the demiurg - just remove the ability to call in nicassars. It's probably the easiest to do. Alternatively they could give Tau auxiliaries an equivalent of Rally! or chained squig. This is probably not ideal though, since from what I can tell upgrades and skills are universal for all faction ships, therefore some would have to be replaced. Or it could be fearless like space marines right untill it reaches 30% HP, at which point it automatically tries to disengage. That would be fine too, I suppose.


Just made up 2 rough concepts. Thoughts?

Theoretical Tau Auxiliary Warship Trait:
Tau Empire Mercenaries:
Tau Auxiliary Warships reduce the chance of failing an insubordination check by 50%. At 30% hit points the Tau Auxiliary Warship will automatically disengage the battle.

Theoretical Tau Auxiliary Warship Favour:
Water Caste Entourage:
Ability [Passive]: Tau Auxiliary Warship automatically pass insubordination checks when above 30% of their hit points. The Tau Auxiliary Warship will automatically disengage at 30% hit points.
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Perturabo-Liberal
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Re: Demiurg ships favor removal

Postby Perturabo-Liberal » 30 September 2016, 13:33

Alexi_Menser wrote:
Perturabo-Liberal wrote:Oh, wow.
Alexi_Menser wrote:
Point well made Perturabo. I'll see if I can get this point noticed by the developers for consideration.

Ideally, what do you think would be the ideal balance change? And if you have multiple ideas please mention them.


I can think of several off the top of my head. They could allow us to fit water cast once again. If the intent was to nerf the demiurg - just remove the ability to call in nicassars. It's probably the easiest to do. Alternatively they could give Tau auxiliaries an equivalent of Rally! or chained squig. This is probably not ideal though, since from what I can tell upgrades and skills are universal for all faction ships, therefore some would have to be replaced. Or it could be fearless like space marines right untill it reaches 30% HP, at which point it automatically tries to disengage. That would be fine too, I suppose.


Just made up 2 rough concepts. Thoughts?

Theoretical Tau Auxiliary Warship Trait:
Tau Empire Mercenaries:
Tau Auxiliary Warships reduce the chance of failing an insubordination check by 50%. At 30% hit points the Tau Auxiliary Warship will automatically disengage the battle.

Theoretical Tau Auxiliary Warship Favour:
Water Caste Entourage:
Ability [Passive]: Tau Auxiliary Warship automatically pass insubordination checks when above 30% of their hit points. The Tau Auxiliary Warship will automatically disengage at 30% hit points.


I'd say on it's own the second concept is definitely better, because you know exactly what will happen and can build your tactics accordingly. The first one doesn't really solve the core problem of you just randomly losing a ship mid-battle, just makes it twice less frequent.
But the first can be default if we are allowed to then fit a favor mitigating it, that's also ok.

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Sir A Harris
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Re: Demiurg ships favor removal

Postby Sir A Harris » 30 September 2016, 14:31

Perturabo-Liberal wrote:
Sir A Harris wrote:
Perturabo-Liberal wrote:Oh, wow.




That's the problem - Tau have Rally! replaced by repair drones.



wait, repair drones are gone o.o


Nope, still there:
Image
In the exact same slot where Rally! is for other factions, too.


Yeah didn't think it was gone, I still have it available for all ships
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