Do space marines suck?

Discuss the Space Marine fleet. There is only the Emperor, and he is our shield and protector.
Cyke
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Re: Do space marines suck?

Postby Cyke » 23 June 2016, 07:57

An Elite balance mod (like DoW2 Elite) would be great.

Like Relic, it looks like developing good games and *balancing* them for multiplayer are two separate skillsets :D

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Scorch715
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Re: Do space marines suck?

Postby Scorch715 » 23 June 2016, 08:40

FieserMoep wrote:I had my nightmare match versus 2 lvl 10 voidstalkers today.
It is not pretty. Those glorified escorts they call cruisers were molten apart.


Probably safe to say you'd have lost that match no matter what faction you were playing. But are you on about the strike cruisers or vanguard cruisers?

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Re: Do space marines suck?

Postby Mav » 23 June 2016, 22:47

Scorch715 wrote:
FieserMoep wrote:I had my nightmare match versus 2 lvl 10 voidstalkers today.
It is not pretty. Those glorified escorts they call cruisers were molten apart.


Probably safe to say you'd have lost that match no matter what faction you were playing. But are you on about the strike cruisers or vanguard cruisers?


Actually slannesh chaos that is actually not braindead shits on eldar coz jumps slannesh and AAF is really nice to do

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Ironhide
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Re: Do space marines suck?

Postby Ironhide » 24 June 2016, 16:03

Didn't SM bombardment cannon have a 270 degree arc in TT?
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Halstead
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Re: Do space marines suck?

Postby Halstead » 24 June 2016, 16:35

Ironhide wrote:Didn't SM bombardment cannon have a 270 degree arc in TT?
They do on Strike Cruisers and Battle Barges in the BFG:A. Vanguard is the only one that is restricted to 90 arc.

Auzor
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Re: Do space marines suck?

Postby Auzor » 25 June 2016, 20:47

The amount of "upgrades" ships are essentially required to take is huuuuge.
So you've bought a ship with torps and thunderhawks?
Great!
Lets unlock boarding torps, bomby thunderhawks and faster bay reloads.
Oh, that is 3 upgrade slots gone, and you still only have 100 shield, 600 hp.
For crew skills, yup, squadron leader, faster skills reloaded. Oh, pick a favor and.. more crew skills to invest into.
You also don't get a "+10 troops value, +1 lightning strike" favor. Or an extra teleporter. IN light cruisers with terminator squads can do three lightning strikes, your massive battlebarge does 1. WTF...
And does the master gunner skill work on the bombardment cannon? In-game text states macro & lance... but it does seem to work.

Oh, and btw: the Hades battlecruiser is 155 points. Considered a pretty terrible ship. But, does get 3 skills, isn't boned if the enemy fleet has a carrier or two, doesn't need to invest in faster bay reloads or boarding torps etc.

People keep talking about dealing with lances; of course.
What about enemy carriers?
You cannot get your own fighters, you don't seem to get bonus turrets, and you have a big hp deficit.
That hp deficit also counts vs plasma bombs.

Overall: Space Marines light cruisers, and cruisers, are underpowered, or overcosted, yes.
To reference the tabletop:
SM vessels were very well armored vs bombers or torps,
the strike cruiser broadside was 4 "dps", the bombardment cannon "3".
For a cost of 145 points. okay..
Reference: gothic strike cruiser: 180 pts tt, 142 in BFG:A.
145 x 142/180=114.4 points. Fine, make it 115 points.

-->The SM ships in BFG:A are more vulnerable than they were, AND they have been extra overcosted.
This also applies to their escorts, which went up in points cost.


Fixing this?
IMO:
all SM capital ships get an extra +3 turrets baseline.
This is to compensate the lack of fighter screens, it isn't even that powerfull vs carrier fleets (say.. the voidstalker, with 4 +evasion bomber squads...)
Torpedo ships get boarding torps by default.
The light vanguard cruiser bombardment cannon gets 270° arc.
light cruisers get 500 hull HP,
strike cruisers 700 HP. (eldar eclipse battlecruiser gets 800 hp.. add void shield and.. yeah.. so much for durable ships)
Upgrade their accuracy. Currently: 80-60-40-20 (0).
Change: 90-70-50-30.
Eldar go 85-70-55-40, fyi.
Alternatively: 85-65-45-25
This helps a bit with their poor macro dps, and also should help the bombardment cannon.
The "lance" cruisers: hmm.. why is the lance front only? Make it able to broadside too, job done?

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Cryhavok
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Re: Do space marines suck?

Postby Cryhavok » 25 June 2016, 23:10

Auzor wrote:The amount of "upgrades" ships are essentially required to take is huuuuge.
So you've bought a ship with torps and thunderhawks?
Great!
Lets unlock boarding torps, bomby thunderhawks and faster bay reloads.
Oh, that is 3 upgrade slots gone, and you still only have 100 shield, 600 hp.

I don't bother with the thunderhawk bombers, I like the assault boats more. A lot more, so that is one upgrade you can skip.

Auzor wrote:For crew skills, yup, squadron leader, faster skills reloaded. Oh, pick a favor and.. more crew skills to invest into.

I think it is interesting, and frankly, good game design, to have to make meaningful choices, and this makes us make meaningful choices where before no one really had to do anything but pick the same skills on every ship with the only variation being whether or not the ship was a carrier. This is good in my opinion.


Auzor wrote:You also don't get a "+10 troops value, +1 lightning strike" favor. Or an extra teleporter. IN light cruisers with terminator squads can do three lightning strikes, your massive battlebarge does 1. WTF...

Overall a space marine ship can cause more assault actions than any other equivalently sized ship. Plus they have more effective assault actions than any other faction. Not having the best lightning strikes is something I noticed and then immediately discarded as important.

Auzor wrote:And does the master gunner skill work on the bombardment cannon? In-game text states macro & lance... but it does seem to work.

Bombardment Cannons are macro weapons that have a few bonuses. They follow all the standard macro weapon rules (plus their few extras like crit chance) and all macro weapon upgrades and skills work on them.

Auzor wrote: Oh, and btw: the Hades battlecruiser is 155 points. Considered a pretty terrible ship. But, does get 3 skills, isn't boned if the enemy fleet has a carrier or two, doesn't need to invest in faster bay reloads or boarding torps etc.
You should finish your thought with what your complaint about it is rather than leaving it up to people's assumptions. As stated, this is truthful, but kind of irrelevant without your actual point.

Auzor wrote:People keep talking about dealing with lances; of course.
What about enemy carriers?
You cannot get your own fighters, you don't seem to get bonus turrets, and you have a big hp deficit.

People (especially myself) have talked at length about dealing with carriers. Personally, I consider carriers to be the counter to space marines and lances to be just a strong threat. You can look through my post history and check out some of my advice, others have replicated it.

Auzor wrote:That hp deficit also counts vs plasma bombs.

If you have the chapter master favor, the reload special order not only improves your cooldown times, but also recharges your combustion gauge. I bring this up because space marines, with their high speed ships and fast recharging combustion gauges can easily get out of plasma bombs.

Auzor wrote:Overall: Space Marines light cruisers, and cruisers, are underpowered, or overcosted, yes.

I agree that the strike cruisers are over costed, I don't personally think that they perform very well. Because of that impression i haven't spent a lot of time using them, so I have little to say regarding their use. However the vanguard mk 1 light cruiser is one of my favorite ships right now. They are well worth their cost. Every point of it.
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Imperator5
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Re: Do space marines suck?

Postby Imperator5 » 26 June 2016, 06:05

I feel the opposite. I feel that a Strike cruiser is sometimes capable of pulling weight. The Vanguard feels like a dark eldar raiding vessel whose weapons were gutted.
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

Please help me change skirmish to be customisable. Its very important for PVE players.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=515 Mod idea.

Auzor
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Re: Do space marines suck?

Postby Auzor » 26 June 2016, 10:22

Cryhavok wrote:
Auzor wrote:The amount of "upgrades" ships are essentially required to take is huuuuge.
So you've bought a ship with torps and thunderhawks?
Great!
Lets unlock boarding torps, bomby thunderhawks and faster bay reloads.
Oh, that is 3 upgrade slots gone, and you still only have 100 shield, 600 hp.

I don't bother with the thunderhawk bombers, I like the assault boats more. A lot more, so that is one upgrade you can skip.

Auzor wrote:For crew skills, yup, squadron leader, faster skills reloaded. Oh, pick a favor and.. more crew skills to invest into.

I think it is interesting, and frankly, good game design, to have to make meaningful choices, and this makes us make meaningful choices where before no one really had to do anything but pick the same skills on every ship with the only variation being whether or not the ship was a carrier. This is good in my opinion.


Auzor wrote:You also don't get a "+10 troops value, +1 lightning strike" favor. Or an extra teleporter. IN light cruisers with terminator squads can do three lightning strikes, your massive battlebarge does 1. WTF...

Overall a space marine ship can cause more assault actions than any other equivalently sized ship. Plus they have more effective assault actions than any other faction. Not having the best lightning strikes is something I noticed and then immediately discarded as important.

Auzor wrote:And does the master gunner skill work on the bombardment cannon? In-game text states macro & lance... but it does seem to work.

Bombardment Cannons are macro weapons that have a few bonuses. They follow all the standard macro weapon rules (plus their few extras like crit chance) and all macro weapon upgrades and skills work on them.

Auzor wrote: Oh, and btw: the Hades battlecruiser is 155 points. Considered a pretty terrible ship. But, does get 3 skills, isn't boned if the enemy fleet has a carrier or two, doesn't need to invest in faster bay reloads or boarding torps etc.
You should finish your thought with what your complaint about it is rather than leaving it up to people's assumptions. As stated, this is truthful, but kind of irrelevant without your actual point.

Auzor wrote:People keep talking about dealing with lances; of course.
What about enemy carriers?
You cannot get your own fighters, you don't seem to get bonus turrets, and you have a big hp deficit.

People (especially myself) have talked at length about dealing with carriers. Personally, I consider carriers to be the counter to space marines and lances to be just a strong threat. You can look through my post history and check out some of my advice, others have replicated it.

Auzor wrote:That hp deficit also counts vs plasma bombs.

If you have the chapter master favor, the reload special order not only improves your cooldown times, but also recharges your combustion gauge. I bring this up because space marines, with their high speed ships and fast recharging combustion gauges can easily get out of plasma bombs.

Auzor wrote:Overall: Space Marines light cruisers, and cruisers, are underpowered, or overcosted, yes.

I agree that the strike cruisers are over costed, I don't personally think that they perform very well. Because of that impression i haven't spent a lot of time using them, so I have little to say regarding their use. However the vanguard mk 1 light cruiser is one of my favorite ships right now. They are well worth their cost. Every point of it.


Thanks for the replies,
Overall: I also don't bother with thunderhawk bombers tbh; a light strike cruiser has 1 hanger, a "normal" one 2.. woopiedoo..
I would say the Mk1 and Mk3 light cruisers are best; short range torp delivery, or bombardment crits.
The lance one.. doesn't seem worth it..

Will have to check on how to counter carrier fleets better then.. groups of bombers just seem to wreck HP..
Hopefully the BB can help.

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Scorch715
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Re: Do space marines suck?

Postby Scorch715 » 26 June 2016, 11:04

Auzor wrote:Thanks for the replies,
Overall: I also don't bother with thunderhawk bombers tbh; a light strike cruiser has 1 hanger, a "normal" one 2.. woopiedoo..
I would say the Mk1 and Mk3 light cruisers are best; short range torp delivery, or bombardment crits.
The lance one.. doesn't seem worth it..

Will have to check on how to counter carrier fleets better then.. groups of bombers just seem to wreck HP..
Hopefully the BB can help.


The Mk1 Battle Barge is beastly. Think of it like a Retribution, but better in pretty much every way. Higher broadside dps, better armour, launch bays (admittedly with no defensive fighters, but still), better troop values and boarding actions. The only place its not equal or better is points, but fit it out as a tank and it will probably never die


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