Do space marines suck?

Discuss the Space Marine fleet. There is only the Emperor, and he is our shield and protector.
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Imperator5
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Re: Do space marines suck?

Postby Imperator5 » 22 June 2016, 09:09

AP ammo is not the problem. AP itself is the problem.

Pulsars, Lances, Zapps, Torpedoes, are the problem. AP macros are just the icing on the turdcake.
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

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Re: Do space marines suck?

Postby CALiGeR190 » 22 June 2016, 09:34

Imperator5 wrote:AP ammo is not the problem. AP itself is the problem.

Pulsars, Lances, Zapps, Torpedoes, are the problem. AP macros are just the icing on the turdcake.

Its a balancing factor if you ask me.
The ships would simply be Overpowered without AP.
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Re: Do space marines suck?

Postby Imperator5 » 22 June 2016, 09:46

CALiGeR190 wrote:
Imperator5 wrote:AP ammo is not the problem. AP itself is the problem.

Pulsars, Lances, Zapps, Torpedoes, are the problem. AP macros are just the icing on the turdcake.

Its a balancing factor if you ask me.
The ships would simply be Overpowered without AP.


The Good: Good boarding. Good boarding resistance. Good armour.
The bad: Bad gunnery, bad health, expensive.

The problem is AP negates the armour too much. If Sm did not have the health penalty you would totally be right. But with the health penalty it is a double counter to them.
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

Please help me change skirmish to be customisable. Its very important for PVE players.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=515 Mod idea.

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Re: Do space marines suck?

Postby CALiGeR190 » 22 June 2016, 09:50

Imperator5 wrote:The Good: Good boarding. Good boarding resistance. Good armour.
The bad: Bad gunnery, bad health, expensive.

The problem is AP negates the armour too much. If Sm did not have the health penalty you would totally be right. But with the health penalty it is a double counter to them.

My view:
+Excellent speed, good crit potential, excellent boarding, carrier capacity and good armour

-Poor broadsides, bad health, weak to AP

That's balanced to me.
The weaknesses are fewer, but serious, but the ship has plenty of strengths and performs very well in combat.
I would not write off this ship as underpowered due to AP. Removing it removes one of the big limiters that makes them balanced.
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Re: Do space marines suck?

Postby Imperator5 » 22 June 2016, 10:02

CALiGeR190 wrote:
Imperator5 wrote:The Good: Good boarding. Good boarding resistance. Good armour.
The bad: Bad gunnery, bad health, expensive.

The problem is AP negates the armour too much. If Sm did not have the health penalty you would totally be right. But with the health penalty it is a double counter to them.

My view:
+Excellent speed, good crit potential, excellent boarding, carrier capacity and good armour

-Poor broadsides, bad health, weak to AP

That's balanced to me.
The weaknesses are fewer, but serious, but the ship has plenty of strengths and performs very well in combat.
I would not write off this ship as underpowered due to AP. Removing it removes one of the big limiters that makes them balanced.


The exorbitant price and the weaker firepower and the Compulsory upgrades are enough to do that without the hull penalty. Both their carrier and torpedo capacity needs upgrade.

The strike cruiser is a mediocre ship. But the Vanguard is just crap.
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

Please help me change skirmish to be customisable. Its very important for PVE players.

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Re: Do space marines suck?

Postby oldman » 22 June 2016, 10:41

Imperator5 wrote:Support vessels need something to support. Without that they are not a good idea.

Yeah, Vanguards are the worst cruisers ever. They got 2 dps all around.

DAuntless got 7 dps front or 8 dps side.

Hellbringers got 6 all around or 8 on the side, with 2 dps being ap.

Both got 200 more health.



And how in that accouting of yours you take into account the superior boarding capabilities?

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Re: Do space marines suck?

Postby Atherius » 22 June 2016, 11:03

They might be a tad under par. ImperatorS is probably right when it comes to too many AP weapons. And the reason he is right is because of the poor health of Space Marine ships. I am not saying they should have the same health as everyone else, but instead of 400hp vs 600hp of Navy and Chaos and 800hp of orks, perhaps the Marines should have had 500hp?

I'd also argue for Space Marine broadside armaments receive a boost to the reload speed of their macro batteries. The Bombardment cannons are fine and do not need a faster the rate of fire, but because the Marines have so few macroes their damage is really lacking. If the macro batteries were to fire every 6 seconds instead of every 9 seconds that would help, and they would still have weaker broadsides than the other races. Their improved rate of fire could easily be explained by the improved quality and better technology of Space Marine vessels.

As for their superior boarding capabilities, I find they are overrated. Other factions can upgrade multiple hits per lightning strike, 3 with favors and teleporters, where as space marines will ever only have single hit lightning strikes. Orcs can spam boarding like no one else, especially if they are carrier heavy and even the eldar can do pretty good with khaine strikes and ulthwe resistance to lightning strikes. In the same category comes mark of Nurgle to mind. To be blunt, one could argue that there are plenty of counters and other boarding capable races out there. Space Marines, while their boardings might be more reliable and able to target specifics, they don't have that much of a boarding advantage.

To be blunt, Space Marine boarding does not make up for their lack of firepower and lack of hitpoints. They are playable, but in many engagements they are the underdogs. They'll have smaller fleets with less hitpoints and firepower than their enemies, their mobility and boarding only partially making up for this.

Especially in defensive missions, such as Planetary strikes and Convoy Escort, they litteraly lack the firepower to affect the enemy effectively and defeat them fast enough.

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Re: Do space marines suck?

Postby CALiGeR190 » 22 June 2016, 12:07

Imperator5 wrote:The exorbitant price and the weaker firepower and the Compulsory upgrades are enough to do that without the hull penalty. Both their carrier and torpedo capacity needs upgrade.

The strike cruiser is a mediocre ship. But the Vanguard is just crap.

Only ever had problems with the price on the escorts and Battlebarges, the strike cruisers and Vangaurds; while expensive, aren't too expensive for me to say is a consistant weakness.

The upgrades arnt 'compulsory'. The ships are playable without them, and against other completely stock ships they compare favourably, but you'd be a fool not to take them ASAP.

Depends on the Strike cruise in question. At least one of them has proven very good for me, but generally I prefer to keep using my Vangaurds. The speed and favourable bourding mechanics are just too good to sacrifice.
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Re: Do space marines suck?

Postby Imperator5 » 22 June 2016, 12:24

CALiGeR190 wrote:
Imperator5 wrote:The exorbitant price and the weaker firepower and the Compulsory upgrades are enough to do that without the hull penalty. Both their carrier and torpedo capacity needs upgrade.

The strike cruiser is a mediocre ship. But the Vanguard is just crap.

Only ever had problems with the price on the escorts and Battlebarges, the strike cruisers and Vangaurds; while expensive, aren't too expensive for me to say is a consistant weakness.

The upgrades arnt 'compulsory'. The ships are playable without them, and against other completely stock ships they compare favourably, but you'd be a fool not to take them ASAP.

Depends on the Strike cruise in question. At least one of them has proven very good for me, but generally I prefer to keep using my Vangaurds. The speed and favourable bourding mechanics are just too good to sacrifice.


The Strike cruisers are the most powerful of all light cruisers, that is true. They are light cruisers with heavier weaponry, stat wise.
The variant I found most useful was the one with hangars. The least useful the Lance one, due to Murder/Hades issue.

They are compulsory, as you say, only a fool would not take them. Strike cruisers are mediocre but okey. Vanguards are just bad and you have not said anything that could sway me yet from that assumption. Boarding is just too random and too slow vs firepower.
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

Please help me change skirmish to be customisable. Its very important for PVE players.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=515 Mod idea.

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Imperator5
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Re: Do space marines suck?

Postby Imperator5 » 22 June 2016, 12:34

CALiGeR190 wrote:
Imperator5 wrote:The exorbitant price and the weaker firepower and the Compulsory upgrades are enough to do that without the hull penalty. Both their carrier and torpedo capacity needs upgrade.

The strike cruiser is a mediocre ship. But the Vanguard is just crap.

Only ever had problems with the price on the escorts and Battlebarges, the strike cruisers and Vangaurds; while expensive, aren't too expensive for me to say is a consistant weakness.

The upgrades arnt 'compulsory'. The ships are playable without them, and against other completely stock ships they compare favourably, but you'd be a fool not to take them ASAP.

Depends on the Strike cruise in question. At least one of them has proven very good for me, but generally I prefer to keep using my Vangaurds. The speed and favourable bourding mechanics are just too good to sacrifice.


To quote you in another thread, "Only a fool would not take them." A notion with which I agree, but it does sound compulsory.

I would like to ask you to consider that these ships have too high skill requirements to be mediocre, and too niche roles too.

Stat wise, the Strike Cruiser is on par with the dauntless. It simply has better boarding and weapons than other light cruisers.

The Vanguard... I'm not sure what it is, but it has half the health than an ork Basha. It is too easy to counter in early games.
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

Please help me change skirmish to be customisable. Its very important for PVE players.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=515 Mod idea.


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