How it feels if you play vs Eldar as any other faction ? Do we want them to be reworked ?

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MYNAME?
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Re: How it feels if you play vs Eldar as any other faction ? Do we want them to be reworked ?

Postby MYNAME? » 30 May 2016, 07:03

Beernchips wrote:Less range and more hitpoints? you mean like IN or Orks?

Pulsar range upgrade will be removed and thats good

For other balance changes without discussing damages :
Vaul s manoeuvre CD should be increased to 40 or 45 seconds
Eldar turning rate should be increased by 5 or 10 for all ships to ease the use of starcannons

Without further testing it is hard to tell the real impact of these changes on Eldar

Pulsar upgrade and vaul s manoeuvre currently make Eldar in very low risky positions when they do a strafe.
Don t forget that Eldars can easily turn into a useless faction if they are forced to go in close range because they have very low range.
A lot of people hate eldar so much they just call nerfs to kill the faction. The aim is to balance and force the Eldar to not be safe in all situations when he go to deal damages. Also don t forget that Eldars will lose any long game because they don t have shields so they need to have high damages to finish the battle as fast as possible


Battles vs eldar are never long though.

And every pulsar run they make kills 1 ship so effectivly you got 2 or 3 minutes to kill eldar before you lose?

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Re: How it feels if you play vs Eldar as any other faction ? Do we want them to be reworked ?

Postby Crnyo » 30 May 2016, 12:29

Eldar have 2 favors which nullify their main weakness- lightning strikes.
Troop strength on Eldar ships with crew skills is 59, favors increase that by 33% or 50%.

Main weaknesses of imperial ships are shorter range and lower speed. Imagine a favor which grants 33%-50% speed boost or accuracy/range buff.

I don't think we would have much issues with Eldar if their high-end ships weren't so invulnerable to lightning strikes. Only thing I would nerf on Pulsars is their ability to fire on unidentified ships.

PS: Crew skills are also problematic because Eldar are able to go from 50 to 59 troop strength. Again imagine a crew skill which allows imperials 10% more speed or range.
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Re: How it feels if you play vs Eldar as any other faction ? Do we want them to be reworked ?

Postby StarSauron » 30 May 2016, 12:34

Problem is just you don't have ships that can keep it up with Eldar.

So why cant Eldar be more like Star Trek Ships ? Close Range.
The changes must be for Eldar players enjoyable too.



so good points of Eldar are
speed
fire power
range


bad points
shields work onyl if they move .
low Hitpoints
can't turn 360° around on same spot
-------------------------------------------
So why not this "new Eldar"
so good points of Eldar are
speed
fire power
no ram damage or from "Nurgle Chaos"
"average" Hitpoints like chaos
working shields

bad points
low range max 4500.
cant ram

at least that will be not annoying.
Any other suggestions ?

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Re: How it feels if you play vs Eldar as any other faction ? Do we want them to be reworked ?

Postby Thedrik » 01 June 2016, 23:27

@StarSauron could you clarify on somethings?

Eldar "shields" so you want them to have actual shields or keep holofields?

If staying with holofields you basically want Eldar to have to weather a barrage of lightning strikes and want them to brawl at optimum ranges for Imperial Ships and Orcs whose weapons will be very effective and chew through hull points quickly?

If you mean shields you basically want them to only have shields that will work when moving like the holofield, will block boarding actions, but will deplete like normal shields when being hammered making them even more susceptible to damage when closing in at close range and taking full damage when shields are gone?

I see that you don't mention that they are frail so I'm going to assume they also keep this trait while ignoring the ramming aspect?

I assume you mean 180° not 360° as 360° puts you right back where you started. 90 + 90 = 180, 180 + 180 = 360, 90 x 4 = 360

Personally I have no real idea what should be done to make Eldar better, I just know they need a hard rethinking and rework but I want it to actually make sense lore wise because I'm one of those guys.

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Re: How it feels if you play vs Eldar as any other faction ? Do we want them to be reworked ?

Postby Cryhavok » 06 June 2016, 19:20

Personally I wouldn't change their mechanics much, I would just increase the point values of their ships and let that balance the game play.
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Re: How it feels if you play vs Eldar as any other faction ? Do we want them to be reworked ?

Postby oldman » 08 June 2016, 11:31

With exception of void stalker Eldar is not a problem. Ork on other hand is much much more widespread on whole faction problem.



If I would nerf eldar , I would just make that you cannot turn your ship while the pulsar is activating (so no fire corrections) and make the beam take 50% more time active (for same final damage)

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Re: How it feels if you play vs Eldar as any other faction ? Do we want them to be reworked ?

Postby StarSauron » 21 June 2016, 15:43

Well we need next step here for sure. Any ideas how better to fix them ?



I would say make Eldar ship immune to ram, give them proper shields that do not disappear if you dont move
and make them range 3000 max 4500.

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Re: How it feels if you play vs Eldar as any other faction ? Do we want them to be reworked ?

Postby Mav » 21 June 2016, 16:02

StarSauron wrote:Well we need next step here for sure. Any ideas how better to fix them ?



I would say make Eldar ship immune to ram, give them proper shields that do not disappear if you dont move
and make them range 3000 max 4500.

As in pulsars range to be 4500?
Or shields starting to work 4500 range from the enemy?
If eldar were to become immune to ramming... would eldar still be able to ram?
Coz you know ramming eldars and escorts is a pretty good idea

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Re: How it feels if you play vs Eldar as any other faction ? Do we want them to be reworked ?

Postby artisticMink » 23 June 2016, 00:03

I had already posted in a similiar thread, but this one feels much more constructive, so i rather would like to discuss that matter here - what i want to say is: Sorry for the double post.


Thing is, if i'm entirely honest - i would actually support it. I feel like they need a rework from the ground up. I don't think it's possible to make eldar fun to play as-and-against with cooldown tweaking.

The basic problem i see with them, ist the factions ability to have complete control over the engagement. Eldar ships can outrun every other ship in the game, which enables the player to approach and disengage at will without much risk. The only thing that could go wrong would be a bad lightning strike / homing boarding torpedo roll.

While engagements with other factions can take up to a few minutes, games against or as eldar are in my experience very short, as you need two to three pulsar pulses per enemy ship (Depending on focused crystal proc and all three pulses hitting). That's enough time for maybe one set of cooldowns to refresh. A lot of people arguing with slanesh favors, homing boarding torpedoes or just straightout 'go boarding' don't take into account that the damage output of pulsars is - even after the patch - so high that engagements don't last more then two minutes. Usually.

I read quite often that Eldars are very micro-heavy and therefore deserve a high payout. In all honesty and without wanting to offend anyone: I don't see it. Even when playing my light cruiser uthwe setup and i have about seven ships under control, it's not more micro intensive then managing my imperial fleet. Staying out of range, vaulting and using darkstar squadron is not rocket science.

Without knowing hot the situation is here, on the steam forums there's quite a bit of frustration. Yes sure, it's the steam forums and the salt is thick and old. But disconnecting in matchups against eldars is a thing. I've to admit that i did it myself after loosing one to many times and just not wanting to deal with it. The 2v2 best choice for boosting a friend is to take your eldar commander on a walk.

In contrast to that, i don't see that many Eldar in MP. I see a lot of chaos, some imps and few orkz. Eldars are rather rare. Probably sounds like it contradicts my eldar whine but the thing is: A lot of people don't enjoy playing eldar. Either because they don't feel it being a challenge or they don't want to get disconnected by other players all the time. At least that's what i'm taking from it.

What i want to say is: Currently, Playing AS eldar isn't fun. Playing AGAINST eldar isn't fun. I know Tindalos can't rework the whole faction because of time constraints and the fact that it's a part of the single player experience. But i would very much appriciate if they could give the faction another in-depth look. For the sake of eldar and non-eldar players alike.

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Re: How it feels if you play vs Eldar as any other faction ? Do we want them to be reworked ?

Postby StarSauron » 25 June 2016, 05:25

artisticMink wrote:I had already posted in a similiar thread, but this one feels much more constructive, so i rather would like to discuss that matter here - what i want to say is: Sorry for the double post.


Thing is, if i'm entirely honest - i would actually support it. I feel like they need a rework from the ground up. I don't think it's possible to make eldar fun to play as-and-against with cooldown tweaking.

The basic problem i see with them, ist the factions ability to have complete control over the engagement. Eldar ships can outrun every other ship in the game, which enables the player to approach and disengage at will without much risk. The only thing that could go wrong would be a bad lightning strike / homing boarding torpedo roll.

While engagements with other factions can take up to a few minutes, games against or as eldar are in my experience very short, as you need two to three pulsar pulses per enemy ship (Depending on focused crystal proc and all three pulses hitting). That's enough time for maybe one set of cooldowns to refresh. A lot of people arguing with slanesh favors, homing boarding torpedoes or just straightout 'go boarding' don't take into account that the damage output of pulsars is - even after the patch - so high that engagements don't last more then two minutes. Usually.

I read quite often that Eldars are very micro-heavy and therefore deserve a high payout. In all honesty and without wanting to offend anyone: I don't see it. Even when playing my light cruiser uthwe setup and i have about seven ships under control, it's not more micro intensive then managing my imperial fleet. Staying out of range, vaulting and using darkstar squadron is not rocket science.

Without knowing hot the situation is here, on the steam forums there's quite a bit of frustration. Yes sure, it's the steam forums and the salt is thick and old. But disconnecting in matchups against eldars is a thing. I've to admit that i did it myself after loosing one to many times and just not wanting to deal with it. The 2v2 best choice for boosting a friend is to take your eldar commander on a walk.

In contrast to that, i don't see that many Eldar in MP. I see a lot of chaos, some imps and few orkz. Eldars are rather rare. Probably sounds like it contradicts my eldar whine but the thing is: A lot of people don't enjoy playing eldar. Either because they don't feel it being a challenge or they don't want to get disconnected by other players all the time. At least that's what i'm taking from it.

What i want to say is: Currently, Playing AS eldar isn't fun. Playing AGAINST eldar isn't fun. I know Tindalos can't rework the whole faction because of time constraints and the fact that it's a part of the single player experience. But i would very much appriciate if they could give the faction another in-depth look. For the sake of eldar and non-eldar players alike.



So your point is,
they are boring because too powerful in right hands or to weak for average player.

1- It gets boring win all the time-
2- It gets boring if people all time leave the battle if you play as Eldar.
3- It sucks to chase them.
4- On low skill they just die at close combat all the time, so boring either.


well yes all people agree Eldar sucks.


But man listen people, I know their lore heritage is from a turn based game, and guess what, that's can't you put 1to1 in Real-time.


So in my opinion we should

1 make a list what represents Eldar.
2 How nerf it, so other people can beat it. or power up so you can still play them.

So what are Lore Eldar in Space ?
Fast, do hit all time the target, Fragile , Void shield active while moving.

Ok here my list what I would try
1- Fast, do hit all time the target= ok so make them close range 3000 max 4500.
2- Fragile = make them Immune to ram! Yes i mean they can maneuver
Yes i mean they can manoeuvre, move around enemy ships without take damage from ram.
That will make them more special, hit them with weapons should be the way to kill them, not simply ram.

3- Most hated point is that Void shield, why can't I simply switch to a normal close combat one ?
With an Ability to change shield and it need like 2 min to recharge for the other version. That will be cool.


So you take your eldar fleet and just hit them direct in the face.


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