How it feels if you play vs Eldar as any other faction ? Do we want them to be reworked ?

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StarSauron
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How it feels if you play vs Eldar as any other faction ? Do we want them to be reworked ?

Postby StarSauron » 25 May 2016, 09:09

Hi, this is my opinion how it is if you play vs Eldar.



The combination of speed, range and fire-power makes it almost impossible to win.
I dont blame them, if they come any closer you just can too easy kill them.


Well back in the old Beta, Eldar were really easy to kill by teleport and taunt.
Its really good that this mechanic was improved, the Chaos, Imperial navy and Orcs are in my opinion pretty good balanced.
I do like all the 4 fleets.

Problem is just if you play Eldar, its too easy, you have your long range Laser and long range bombers.
Well the idea to wipe fleets progress by the End of the Beta, was maybe the mayor source, why it wasn't so obvious before.


Any ideas how it could be done, so its for eldar and other players enjoyable ?


my Idea
So maybe Eldar just need a rework from long Range faction , to close range ?
I mean if their weapons will have max. range of 6000. That could fix a lot,
but on the other hand we should make them in other stuff more powerful.

In my opinion it would be better to fight close range a faction you can't taunt and who do good maneuver,
than this never ending chase and you lose 1 ship by 1 and don't even see where it coming.

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Scorch715
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Re: How it feels if you play vs Eldar as any other faction ? Do we want them to be reworked ?

Postby Scorch715 » 25 May 2016, 14:57

Cutting the Eldars maximum range to 6000 is just daft. Even if you make them immune to taunt, at 6k range other races are accurate enough that the Eldar ships will be reduced to scrap incredibly quick if the opposing player has any idea what they're doing.

Given that the Imperial Navy and Orks are at their best within 6k range, and with Space Marines most likely going to be a short range brawling faction as well, it makes no sense to try and force the Eldar into a playstyle they really don't suit. The only fair nerf would perhaps be to their detection range a bit so if they do want to kite you, they have to maintain visual via escorts, upgrades, etc

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Mr Morden
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Re: How it feels if you play vs Eldar as any other faction ? Do we want them to be reworked ?

Postby Mr Morden » 25 May 2016, 17:39

Gotta love them Shadows :D

I haev only been slaughtered by one eldar player so far...................otherwise been good games - lost soem, won some, stuff blew up.

However I only play 1 vs 1 and may be mid tier at best...........usually am.
Imperial - Lady Lukara (8), Chaos - Abraxus (8), Eldar - Flower of Carnage (2) , Orks - Big Bazza (6), Wolve - Floki (6) :mrgreen:

StarSauron
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Re: How it feels if you play vs Eldar as any other faction ? Do we want them to be reworked ?

Postby StarSauron » 25 May 2016, 20:34

Well if we compare ships, I would suggest here a behaviour like by Babylon 5 Whitestar.
I mean its close range and high maneuverable.





I would like to have by eldar unique gameplay, but one that does make fun for all.

If we look at their Trailer, its pretty familiar/similar with whitestars.



Speed and long range can't be a good combination.
We have to remove one thing, and that should be in my opinion the range.

so idea for new eldars.
max range 4000 till 5000 for pulsars.
So why not give them more hit points.
Able to fly close to enemy ships without taking damage by collisions.

It will be less annoying to have them moving fast around close range, than this never ending goose chase battles.

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Re: How it feels if you play vs Eldar as any other faction ? Do we want them to be reworked ?

Postby Beernchips » 25 May 2016, 20:43

Less range and more hitpoints? you mean like IN or Orks?

Pulsar range upgrade will be removed and thats good

For other balance changes without discussing damages :
Vaul s manoeuvre CD should be increased to 40 or 45 seconds
Eldar turning rate should be increased by 5 or 10 for all ships to ease the use of starcannons

Without further testing it is hard to tell the real impact of these changes on Eldar

Pulsar upgrade and vaul s manoeuvre currently make Eldar in very low risky positions when they do a strafe.
Don t forget that Eldars can easily turn into a useless faction if they are forced to go in close range because they have very low range.
A lot of people hate eldar so much they just call nerfs to kill the faction. The aim is to balance and force the Eldar to not be safe in all situations when he go to deal damages. Also don t forget that Eldars will lose any long game because they don t have shields so they need to have high damages to finish the battle as fast as possible
Repent, for tomorrow you die

StarSauron
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Re: How it feels if you play vs Eldar as any other faction ? Do we want them to be reworked ?

Postby StarSauron » 25 May 2016, 20:54

I don't have for example a problem with chaos, even if they go for range 15.000 with lances.
It's not a big damage and you still can reach them. Yes they can make some damage, but still it feels fair.
I have played several times as Orc and Imperial vs Chaos , they are OK for me.
I can easy, even without Nurgle go close range vs Empire or Chase Eldar.


Problem is, how should this 2 slow fleets like orcs and Imperium actually chase and reach the eldar ?

Why not make like Bird of Prey ?

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Re: How it feels if you play vs Eldar as any other faction ? Do we want them to be reworked ?

Postby Beernchips » 25 May 2016, 21:40

Problem is, how should this 2 slow fleets like orcs and Imperium actually chase and reach the eldar ?


I think you are mixing everything at same time :
- IN and Orks main strategy vs Eldar is not to chase them is to retaliate when Eldar is going for a run. You have to set up the best situations in the short time the Eldar will be vulnerable
- IN and CHaos can eventually chase Eldar with Dauntless/escorts or Chaos LC/Slaughter and using AAF so the chase can t last long
- An Eldar ship chased can t really turn back to use it weapons

The "only" problem with Eldar current state is that with Pulsar range upgrade and vaul s manoeuvre having same CD as Pulsar, Eldar take very low risks when attacking and also enemy can t really retaliate effectively. Im not even speaking about VS which is a monster even without upgrades
Eldar caught die as fast as the bird of prey in the video but they don t have to go in enemy range because of upgradesand skills they can use.

To sum up my view, Eldar current OPness is not the weapons nor the ships (except the VS which have eveything built in), it is the upgrades and skills that change them from a "melee assassin" faction (short range, high damage, low survivability) into a "sniper with a bazooka" faction

If you also take in account the missions it leads to some stupid games when enemy can t do anything but, as I said, reducing range of ELdar at less than 6k will just kill the faction, they are paper and can t sustain damage with regenshields.
Repent, for tomorrow you die

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Re: How it feels if you play vs Eldar as any other faction ? Do we want them to be reworked ?

Postby Superchibisan » 25 May 2016, 22:33

I really want star cannons to be more viable against anything but other Eldar.

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Re: How it feels if you play vs Eldar as any other faction ? Do we want them to be reworked ?

Postby MYNAME? » 28 May 2016, 01:01

StarSauron wrote:Well if we compare ships, I would suggest here a behaviour like by Babylon 5 Whitestar.
I mean its close range and high maneuverable.





I would like to have by eldar unique gameplay, but one that does make fun for all.

If we look at their Trailer, its pretty familiar/similar with whitestars.



Speed and long range can't be a good combination.
We have to remove one thing, and that should be in my opinion the range.

so idea for new eldars.
max range 4000 till 5000 for pulsars.
So why not give them more hit points.
Able to fly close to enemy ships without taking damage by collisions.

It will be less annoying to have them moving fast around close range, than this never ending goose chase battles.


If you made them tanky and not get rekt in rams they will be something they are not.
Eldars fortay is being as annoying as possible. Its what they do. Run away and only fight when they feel like it.

Eldar cant tank. They are hit n run specialists. The way eldar are being played now is fairly accurate they just need to tweak it so they can make it out alive.

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Re: How it feels if you play vs Eldar as any other faction ? Do we want them to be reworked ?

Postby Alberic Strein » 29 May 2016, 18:43

How does playing against Eldars feel?

Like strapping a photograph of the balancing team to a body bag and slapping the hell out of it.

I used to have quite ambivalent thoughts about Eldars, they seem like a very, very tough race to play as, since half the guys I used to meet in multiplayer used to have their fleets destroyed in the few opening minutes of the match, and a very tough race to play against, with me in turn being completely unable to even scratch the paint off the ships of the other half. Now that people got better at playing Eldar, my opinion of the faction got progressively worse.

To shut off one eldar player, you need specific skills and/or upgrades on your ships. The issue being that you are limited in the number of ships you can own and man. Now when looking at my fleet I must consider the point combinations, combos I can pull off with these ships, what I like or would like to field, and slap Eldar countermesures on top of that. Having a wholly different race that plays extremely differently is fun, but only if you can give players from other factions room to adapt their playstyle.

Anyway, that's not that important, gestion games are fun because you have to juggle an impressive amounts of parameters after all.

But I just came out of a 2v2 game where I utterly let down my partner. We were Ork+Chaos Vs Imperium+Eldar, my Ork buddy wasn't equipped for dealing with the eldar, so it was my job. He did his job well, taking down a battlecruiser before being focused down by most of the enemy forces, with me being completely unable to prevent the eldars from pelleting him. He even did every ork player proud by taking down the imperial flagship with his escorts alone. On my end I was pretty damaged, my flagship lost and my remaining Carnage cruiser down to about half health, but I had at least taken down one eldar cruiser and damaged the battlecruiser. I actually believed I could bag that one by combining my Khornish daemonic strikes with micro-warp jumps, my supercharged void shield allowing me to tank the pulsar onslaught. I couldn't hope to get close like I would have wanted, and definitely not facing broadside to be actually able to gun down the ship, but I perform assault actions, if only from lightning strikes.

Long story short, not a single one worked. I did manage to get in range, at the cost of health, skills, and capitalising on every single sloppy move that eldar player made, but no lightning strike did anything, ever. Oh well, tough luck right?

Only his Saim'hamm ship did not need to rely on luck, percentages or anything, pop in, blast pulsars with a 50% bonus, pop out with the immediate U-turn, rinse, repeat. The only thing I could do was grit my teeth and pray for that one lightning strike to work.

Also, what's the point of giving eldars explicit weaknesses against boarding actions and lightning in particular if two of their favours serve to make them resistant to all boarding actions or to lightning strikes in particular?

So yeah, opening a can of whoop ass on Eldars demands an entirely different knife than for all other factions, you are limited in the number of knives you own, and the proven eldar tactic works the same way against everyone.

That being said, they seem extremely hard to play as.


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