The problem with removing ranged pulsars, for buffing starcannons

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Auzor
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The problem with removing ranged pulsars, for buffing starcannons

Postby Auzor » 21 May 2016, 13:09

So,
afaik, the dev-plan is still to
-remove the +3k range upgrade from pulsars,
-replace with a starcannon buff.

Problem-time:
the devs have stated that they want to give the players the option between two playstyles; pulsars or starcannons.
In theory, a buff upgrade for starcannons should be good for the eldar cruiser, the shadow. In practice..

-the Shadow, for 132 poits, brings 2 abilities, a torpedo launcher,
8 starcannons, and 600 HP to the table.

Unlike IN/Chaos however, the Eldar Battlecruiser gets bonus HP; 800 HP.
it trades the torp launcher for a launch bay,
gets an extra ability,
and.. trades 2 starcannons, for 3 pulsars.

The pulsar would need a massive nerf, for the Shadow to be "viable" compared to the Eclipse.

If there is a buff for the starcannons, an argument can still be made to take solarises instead;
trade 2 starcannons and a torp launcher, for a launch bay, and cheaper cost.

In terms of dps from starcannons, the voidstalker also equals the Shadow. So, any buff to star cannons might actually benefit the voidstalker, which already has the 9k range.
1 voidstalker or 2 shadows: the shadows cost more points to field,
the shadows would effectively trade away the 4 voidstalker pulsars for another set of starcannons, all at 6k range,
and trade 4 launch bays for 2 x 4 torpedoes.


Suggestions for buffing the Shadow:
-give it a 5-torp salvo; something unique, or 6 torps.. torp spam ftw..
-change all the Shadows star cannons for "voidstalker" heavy starcannons. It would go from 12 dps to the front, to
16 dps to the front; and get a base range of 9k. Or change say, half the starcannons,.. give them the increased damage but not the range, ..
-give it a launch bay too.

Other options: make the star cannons have a wider arc; some can fire left-front, others front-right.

-Nerf-buff vs the Eclipse:
Both Shadow & Eclipse get 700 HP, to mirror the "same HP for cruiser & BC" of IN/Chaos.

-As it relies on star cannons, sustained firepower weapons; give it, baseline, a higher troops value: 55-60.
But, Biel-tan only adds +15-20 and Ulthwe +20-25.

Beernchips
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Re: The problem with removing ranged pulsars, for buffing starcannons

Postby Beernchips » 21 May 2016, 17:32

you are comparing a 132 points Cruiser with a 171 points Battle cruiser, it is obvious Eclipse is better, he costs 40 more points.
You don t chose between shadow and Eclipse you should have to chose between starcannon Shadow and Eldar non existing pulsar cruiser or between Eclipse Pulsar and non existing starcannon eldar battlecruiser.
As long Eldar don t have different ships, you have 0 choice because you take what is available and available ships have both starcannons and pulsars.
Repent, for tomorrow you die

Auzor
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Re: The problem with removing ranged pulsars, for buffing starcannons

Postby Auzor » 21 May 2016, 21:48

Beernchips wrote:you are comparing a 132 points Cruiser with a 171 points Battle cruiser, it is obvious Eclipse is better, he costs 40 more points.
You don t chose between shadow and Eclipse you should have to chose between starcannon Shadow and Eldar non existing pulsar cruiser or between Eclipse Pulsar and non existing starcannon eldar battlecruiser.
As long Eldar don t have different ships, you have 0 choice because you take what is available and available ships have both starcannons and pulsars.


I do mention the cost,
btw: despite costing more than an Aurora, would you say the shadow is better than one?

And how often to you see the Shadow being fielded?
Mostly when your other ships are destroyed, and maaaybe vs other eldar.

Otherwise, BB, BC or light cruiser is probably better, in that order.
Currently, possibly escorts are a better choice than the cruiser..

And btw: solaris and Aurora don't have both Pulsar and starcannon. Shadow neither. Aconite & nightshade neither.
5 out of 9 ships don't have both.

I do want some more eldar ships, or variants; but if right now there was a pulsar-cruiser, it might get taken, or not, depending on where it stands vs the Eclipse. But the Shadow? Still no.

Ire
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Re: The problem with removing ranged pulsars, for buffing starcannons

Postby Ire » 22 May 2016, 07:38

I've mentioned elsewhere but there is another issue with the voidstalker if pulsar ranges get nerfed: the order of applied damage could make the pulsars better.

Right now, pulsars drop sheilds, maybe overflow into armor, and then starcannons rounds start hitting 50-95 armor.

If the starcannons impact first, deal the full damage to sheilds, then more of the pulsar will hit the armor and being AP, would be more efficient than the starcannons at applying the damage through 25-45 armor.

Just a balance thought to keep in mind.

As for balancing pulsars vs starcannons, without more ship classes you can only really compare aconite vs hemlock directly. Don't have numbers in front of me, but the aconite already does significantly more dps iirc.

Another issue to consider is the crit resistance of the starcannons. Instead of being grouped into 1-2 batteries they are 6-15 individual weapons - a starcannon taking a crit is almost a free pass.

Auzor
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Re: The problem with removing ranged pulsars, for buffing starcannons

Postby Auzor » 22 May 2016, 08:10

Ire wrote:I've mentioned elsewhere but there is another issue with the voidstalker if pulsar ranges get nerfed: the order of applied damage could make the pulsars better.

Right now, pulsars drop sheilds, maybe overflow into armor, and then starcannons rounds start hitting 50-95 armor.

If the starcannons impact first, deal the full damage to sheilds, then more of the pulsar will hit the armor and being AP, would be more efficient than the starcannons at applying the damage through 25-45 armor.

Just a balance thought to keep in mind.

As for balancing pulsars vs starcannons, without more ship classes you can only really compare aconite vs hemlock directly. Don't have numbers in front of me, but the aconite already does significantly more dps iirc.

Another issue to consider is the crit resistance of the starcannons. Instead of being grouped into 1-2 batteries they are 6-15 individual weapons - a starcannon taking a crit is almost a free pass.


I'm skeptic of the "order of damage".
On the voidstalker: 4 damage/starcannon/shot. 6 star cannons. At 6k range, 70% accuracy.
16.8 damage every 2 seconds, averaged.
Sure, an entire fleet etc, but the pulsars are pretty "front-loaded".
If star cannons had a profile like IN macro weapons, with a 12s reload, I could definitely see that to be more of an issue.


And agreed on star cannon crit resistance. The voidstalker losing a starcannon: "oh noes! I've lost a weapon sys.. nvm, we're good".

Aconite out-dps-ing hmm..
the aconite dishes out 5dps, macro cannon.
At 3k range, 85% accuracy, for 4.25 dps going vs armor. We'll presume we're damaging shields or have AP.

The Hemlock prow pulsar: 3x 30 damage, 30s cooldown. Also, 1 dps starcannon.. for 0.85 dps?
Anyway: if 2/3 pulsar shots hit, 60 damage, the aconite needs about 15 seconds to catch up. All presuming AP, short range etc.
-> not bleeding likely me thinks..

Braincandy
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Re: The problem with removing ranged pulsars, for buffing starcannons

Postby Braincandy » 22 May 2016, 08:27

In a vacuum, there is no problem with Starcannons. The front starcannons on a shadow does more damage than the broadside of any other cruiser or Battlecruiser in the game, including Ork ships with the lotsa heavy cannons on the broadsides. Only the megacannon prow weapons compare to Starcannon DPS, only with a 3k native range.

The problem with Starcannons is the ships they are mounted to. An Eldar ship simply can not survive in the 6k range for any sort of extended time period. You WILL get traktored, taunted and wrecked. If your Eldar ship bumps an enemy ship, the damage to you is catastrophic. Even with your holofield at Max, macro's do so much damage to an Eldar ship that your superior DPS won't save you. You will recieve lighting strike spam, and it will cripple things you can't live without.

Pony
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Re: The problem with removing ranged pulsars, for buffing starcannons

Postby Pony » 22 May 2016, 11:01

The problem with Starcannons is the ships they are mounted to. An Eldar ship simply can not survive in the 6k range for any sort of extended time period. You WILL get traktored, taunted and wrecked. If your Eldar ship bumps an enemy ship, the damage to you is catastrophic. Even with your holofield at Max, macro's do so much damage to an Eldar ship that your superior DPS won't save you. You will recieve lighting strike spam, and it will cripple things you can't live without.


+1

Eldars can't match any front fight, exept versus pulsar eldar when u're holo is on.
So they need high burst weapons, or they're dead.

But, if starcanons are made burst weapon, will they be more or less bursty than pulsars? (problem will be the same)
Actually, you can use starcanons when :
-you fight an eldar
-you're behind a ship long enough

MYNAME?
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Re: The problem with removing ranged pulsars, for buffing starcannons

Postby MYNAME? » 28 May 2016, 00:53

Pony wrote:
The problem with Starcannons is the ships they are mounted to. An Eldar ship simply can not survive in the 6k range for any sort of extended time period. You WILL get traktored, taunted and wrecked. If your Eldar ship bumps an enemy ship, the damage to you is catastrophic. Even with your holofield at Max, macro's do so much damage to an Eldar ship that your superior DPS won't save you. You will recieve lighting strike spam, and it will cripple things you can't live without.


+1

Eldars can't match any front fight, exept versus pulsar eldar when u're holo is on.
So they need high burst weapons, or they're dead.

But, if starcanons are made burst weapon, will they be more or less bursty than pulsars? (problem will be the same)
Actually, you can use starcanons when :
-you fight an eldar
-you're behind a ship long enough


Best thing to do maybe is improve the firing arch to 180? But if you are flying past ships you are only doing 50% of your original damage?

Auzor
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Re: The problem with removing ranged pulsars, for buffing starcannons

Postby Auzor » 28 May 2016, 10:24

MYNAME? wrote:
Best thing to do maybe is improve the firing arch to 180? But if you are flying past ships you are only doing 50% of your original damage?


Easy:
take the shadow cruiser, it has 8 starcannons I think.
4 are given a 180° arc, front-left, 4 front-right.

Concentrated frontal power, 50% broadside power.

IMO: not enough to make the current shadow cruiser a "contender".

Regards,

BanjoJohn
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Re: The problem with removing ranged pulsars, for buffing starcannons

Postby BanjoJohn » 08 June 2016, 12:00

Beernchips wrote:you are comparing a 132 points Cruiser with a 171 points Battle cruiser, it is obvious Eclipse is better, he costs 40 more points.
You don t chose between shadow and Eclipse you should have to chose between starcannon Shadow and Eldar non existing pulsar cruiser or between Eclipse Pulsar and non existing starcannon eldar battlecruiser.
As long Eldar don t have different ships, you have 0 choice because you take what is available and available ships have both starcannons and pulsars.



This is one thing I hate about this current game. Eldar in TT have 2 cruisers, 0 battlecruisers. They took a cruiser and pushed it to fit into a battlecruiser slot. This is messing up eldar balance. They should make eldar have 2 cruisers, 0 battlecruisers. And make it so that battlecruiser slots for eldar let you take additional cruisers.


I'm affraid of what they will do for space marines as well, because they didn't have any battlecruisers either.


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