Eldar pulsars in the 40k universe/tabletop game. Are they really that OP?

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menaximus
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Eldar pulsars in the 40k universe/tabletop game. Are they really that OP?

Postby menaximus » 19 May 2016, 22:23

Is here in the forum someon who could clear that? These pulasrs are originally so strong (as everybody seems to cry about :roll: ), or devs just made them op in this game?

Im asking 40k tabletop gamers (if there are any of thoes here) or fans who red about it somewhere (since lexicanum isn't the only source of info - i guess).

Did they took theese stats from the originall game
Last edited by menaximus on 19 May 2016, 23:01, edited 1 time in total.

Elkantar
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Re: Eldar pulsars in the 40k universe/tabletop game. Are they really that OP?

Postby Elkantar » 19 May 2016, 22:29

Yep even stronger, they oneshot planets from 1000000000 million's of lightyear's away. Sorry for trolling this.

One Question did you got recon? Bombers? Used your skills to Evade the Pulsars in the right time? And did you board his ships while he pulsared and disabled his weapons? Generators?

You know the Skill taunt? You know how to focus fire, Ramming?

And did you ever lost to an eldar not using Pulsars, wait you cant cause he got no reliable damage from any other weapon/system in his arsenal!

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menaximus
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Re: Eldar pulsars in the 40k universe/tabletop game. Are they really that OP?

Postby menaximus » 19 May 2016, 22:46

Elkantar wrote:Used your skills to Evade the Pulsars in the right time? And did you board his ships while he pulsared and disabled his weapons? Generators?


Actually...I dont play that often agains another eldar to be to much concerned about given in-game situation.
My anti-kin tactic is still in development and i will think about the advises you gave me.


Although my question stays, and i'm pretty curious about the non-trolled answer.

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Re: Eldar pulsars in the 40k universe/tabletop game. Are they really that OP?

Postby Elkantar » 19 May 2016, 22:53

anti eldar its easy, take shadow and bombers :P

kite around on near hull and they cant hit with pulsars, also pulsars count as lance, your 1 Damage Starcannon will kill someday day, and dont forget to board and destroy weapons/generators ^^

dont forget beacons, an always detected VS is a useless VS.

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Mr Morden
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Re: Eldar pulsars in the 40k universe/tabletop game. Are they really that OP?

Postby Mr Morden » 19 May 2016, 23:07

menaximus wrote:Is here in the forum someon who could clear that? These pulasrs are originally so strong (as everybody seems to cry about :roll: ), or devs just made them op in this game?

Im asking 40k tabletop gamers (if there are any of thoes here) or fans who red about it somewhere (since lexicanum isn't the only source of info - i guess).

Did they took theese stats from the originall game


Eldar are so very difficult to translate - they are short range but move twice - the Pulsar is powerful but random

It fires either 1, 2, or 3 shots and does not always hit.
Imperial - Lady Lukara (8), Chaos - Abraxus (8), Eldar - Flower of Carnage (2) , Orks - Big Bazza (6), Wolve - Floki (6) :mrgreen:

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Re: Eldar pulsars in the 40k universe/tabletop game. Are they really that OP?

Postby Ire » 19 May 2016, 23:31

I'll treat this as a honest question.

Lances, in the TT, had a half chance of dealing what this game considers 100 dmg / turn.

Pulsars were lances that if they hit, had a 50% chance to deal another 100 dmg, followed by another 50% chance for another 100 dmg.

This variable damage meant that they had much much higher damage POTENTIAL than they do now, but much less reliability, and did not have anywhere near the restrictions on facing and movement.

they were not fixed mounts, and on the voidstalker actually had a 180 degree fire arc.

they were, easily, the most powerful non-ordanance basic weapon in the tabletop.

The eldar though needed a rework from the TT due to many reasons, and so many factors do not translate well.

tldr; yeah, pretty much.

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Re: Eldar pulsars in the 40k universe/tabletop game. Are they really that OP?

Postby Rolepgeek » 20 May 2016, 05:40

Elkantar wrote:Yep even stronger, they oneshot planets from 1000000000 million's of lightyear's away. Sorry for trolling this.

One Question did you got recon? Bombers? Used your skills to Evade the Pulsars in the right time? And did you board his ships while he pulsared and disabled his weapons? Generators?

You know the Skill taunt? You know how to focus fire, Ramming?

And did you ever lost to an eldar not using Pulsars, wait you cant cause he got no reliable damage from any other weapon/system in his arsenal!

I've primarily been using Solaris and doing fine. Screwed up by Slaanesh, certainly, but if you can isolate them, Starcannons do just fine.

Anyway. Answer is no. Huge burst damage potential, but I'm practice, only a bit better. 1/2 chance of no hits, 1/4 chance of 1 hit, 1/8 chance of 2 hits, 1/8 chance of 3 hita is 7/8 average hits per firepower per turn, as compared to 4/8 hits per firepower per turn for basic lances. They went with 3 DPS per firepower, rather than 1.75 or 2, and then made it too easy to get that full amount of 3 DPS.

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Re: Eldar pulsars in the 40k universe/tabletop game. Are they really that OP?

Postby Ire » 20 May 2016, 16:51

Rolepgeek wrote:
Anyway. Answer is no. Huge burst damage potential, but I'm practice, only a bit better. 1/2 chance of no hits, 1/4 chance of 1 hit, 1/8 chance of 2 hits, 1/8 chance of 3 hita is 7/8 average hits per firepower per turn, as compared to 4/8 hits per firepower per turn for basic lances. They went with 3 DPS per firepower, rather than 1.75 or 2, and then made it too easy to get that full amount of 3 DPS.


Your math is a bit wrong and here's clarification
1/2 for a miss
1/4 for only 1 hit
3/16ths for 2 hits
1/8 for 3 hits.

However, since all Lance's always hit now, the direct translation would be

1/2 for only 1 hit
1/4 for 2 hits
1/4 for 3 hits

So with the base accuracy across the board being so much higher, the increase of DPS was to be expected.

Where it breaks down is when you compare it to how regular Lance's were brought over. But, your giving up the turret for a fixed mount so a ~50% increase in dps for a ~ 95-99% decrease in zone of fire doesn't sound too unreasonable to me. It's a lot harder and risky to get that dps compared to a Lance turret.

Where the problem lies is in the drastically decreased rate of fire. This bumps its alpha strike damage to a far greater degree than other weapon systems ( if a macro battery had the same rate of fire a domi broadside would be doing 360dmg salvos instead of 144, or a deathdeala double mega kannon would hit for 720(!))

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Re: Eldar pulsars in the 40k universe/tabletop game. Are they really that OP?

Postby Rolepgeek » 20 May 2016, 18:47

...
8/16 + 4/16 + 3/16 + 2/16 = 17/16. My math is not wrong. Your probabilities add up to more than 1.

Second, lances auto-hit because in tabletop they didn't have a gunnery table. They were just flat deals damage or does not. Thus it is the comparison of Pulsars to normal lances that is relevant here, as all lances would have their DPS increased by the same amount if you wanted to use that logic. And while I agree that it was a pretty good way to do it, the problem is that staying target for the three seconds it takes on anything larger than an escort is not difficult in the slightest at 6k range. Less difficult if they've been chasing you, and are just coming straight on. Set them to attack the target, have a nice order just outside maximum range for the pulsar, and tada. The rate of fire might contribute to this, though I think having a high alpha is fine as long as it carries an element of risk. Whether that's risk of wasting it or risk of getting too close. The other problem, with starcannons, is this; Imperial macro batteries have a long enough wait period between shots that they can bring both sides to bear on a single target in the initial closing, which was not possible in the tabletop, while Eldar starcannons can't get their full equivalent effective firepower because they have to hit and run, which obviously functions differently in RTS as opposed to TBS(focus on skills and loadouts right now actually makes me hesitant to call it RTS at high level :/). I'm not certain how much of an increase in damage to compensate for Eldar vulnerability/fighting style is called for, particularly if holofields get buffed against macro fire like they're supposed to. All I can think of is reducing reload time on light starcannons to 2 seconds and increasing the damage per shot on each of the others by a point. Maaaybe two on the VS. That seems rather much, though, the problem with these styles of weapons is that they're hard to find tune, and needing to make new models or meshes or what-have-you due to adjusting the number of weapons would introduce a whole new set of difficulties. Maybe the new Starcannon upgrade will increase how quickly they fire while locked on.

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Re: Eldar pulsars in the 40k universe/tabletop game. Are they really that OP?

Postby Ire » 20 May 2016, 19:51

I don't see how you can say your math is correct when you list 1/8th for 2 hits and the same 1/8th for 3 hits on the tt pulsar.

Aside from that, yes, the pulsar we have here isnt hard to hit with, that's not the problem. The problem is compaired to the 90-180 degree turrets, the need to be driving straight at your opponent - the last thing you'd otherwise ever want to do - exposes you terribly.

Starcannons are also a pretty big issue. I have no idea how to make them a worthwhile weapon without doing something like outright doubling dps or completely rewriting them to an alpha weapon (thus supplanting the role of the pulsar.)


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