Eldar balance focus

Share your superior strategies. For kaela mensha khaine!
Rothnocker
Posts: 22
Joined: 28 April 2016, 19:31
Contact:

Re: Eldar balance focus

Postby Rothnocker » 12 May 2016, 04:06

Personally here's what I'd like to see for Eldar:

Pulsar:
-Stasis cancels 100% of damage from Pulsar if ship is inside
-75% Reduction to hull damage through shields and Pulsar only damages the hull(like strike bombers)
-Falloff damage: 9k-12k 50% damage reduction; 6k-9k 15% damage reduction; 3k-6k 0% damage reduction; < 3k 100% damage increase
-Base Range: LC = 6k; Cruiser = 6k; BC = 9k; BS = 9k
-DO NOT remove range boost ability for Pulsar

Holofields:
-40% chance to disarm torpedoes within 2500
-Up to 30% chance to reduce ramming damage by 75%(with full Holofields)

FAVOURS
Saim-Hann:
-Increase Phantom Disruption Duration by 10 seconds
-Increase Ambusher Damage Increase to 60%
-Ambusher Damage Increase only applies within 6k

Ulthwe:
-Decrease Maelstrom Cast Range to 7500
-Increase Maelstrom Damage to 4.5 per second
-Increase Maelstrom Duration to 50 seconds
-Maelstrom ONLY damages hull
-Maelstrom does 0 damage to hull if shields are active

With these changes lets just start with a base damage of 600 for Pulsars(just a number)
-If shields are up this number is reduced to 113
-If above 9k it is reduced to 300(with Saim-Hann = 300)
-If at 6-9k it is reduced to 510(with Saim-Hann = 510)
-If at 3-6k it stays at 600(with Saim-Hann = 960)
-If under 3k increases to 1200(with Saim-Hann = 1920)
-If above 9k with shields active it is reduced to 75(with Saim-Hann = 75)
-If at 6-9k with shields active it is reduced to 128(with Saim-Hann = 128)
-If at 3-6k with shields active it is reduced to 150(with Saim-Hann = 240)
-If under 3k with shields active it is reduced to 300(with Saim-Hann = 480)

All of the values are calculated by doing range penalty(bonus) first and then shield impact(if active) and armor is not yet calculated. Even at over 9k the weapon can still cause damage, and this is straight hull damage so if something is close to dead you can effectively stay at range and finish them off(sucks for my precious Orks especially if engines are gone), but you can't start at that range and remain there the entire match or you won't get the required damage to win.

As for Ulthwe, well reducing the cast range is the huge change in this, you have to come within range that others can see if they got the detection radius upgrade. This is a huge risk for Eldar, but the added damage and duration can really turn things your way if the poor sap gets stuck in Stasis and doesn't get the taunt/trakktor/etc. off during that brief instance that you are spotted. Also it can be countered by the opponent having quick recharging upgrades/skills, which would make me happy personally(would likely rage if I didn't bring ships with those skills, but it is counterable this way).

User avatar
Harlequin
Posts: 114
Joined: 09 March 2016, 01:53
Location: Frankfurt am Main
Contact:

Re: Eldar balance focus

Postby Harlequin » 12 May 2016, 06:48

- Make the Tauntduation down to 5-8 seconds, but the tauntet ship is for another 5-8 secounds immune to another taunt.

- Fix the bug of Wicro-Warp-Jump, because, taunt is just a keystone to catch an eldar, (works quite well), while Micro-Warp-Jump is just the keystone to get away of taunt, (but you have to choose your new position in an instant, there is no time to click like 30 times over a minute around till you are lucky enough to find a correct location to finally jump). Tthe Dominospirall the Devs orginally created works quite well with this in my opinion.

- remove the skill of the (don't remember the name, let's call it) "detection torpedo" and give it to all bigger (all above light cruisers and escorts) ships as a permanent ability without paying with a slot, and maybe adjust the cd down to a minute as well as reduce the area of effect, if needed. (remeber, you can more easily dodge this because of it's slow speed, but having them more spammable, while of course a smaller area, you can make a wall of 2 or 3 detection torpedos, to force the eldar to fly another direction if he wants to stay invisible, and don't forget, you can skill the other detection thing too, if you already have the first one for free, and needed more.

- rework the free slot of the "detection torpedo" into a counter-measure [Something like a "White Noise" Torpedo] for enemy detection-torpedos. this just brings the cloak- / decloakthing more into the core of the game like submarines. This should also despell the detectionprobe on the own hull, but needs a 3min cd. too. Also it brings the ability to cut a passage into an enemy detection wall to rush throughit for your next fly by, or on the opponent side, giving the ability to negate an eldar detection torpedo, to force the attacking eldar to shot into you as a blip insteat of a detected ship^^

And for the Pulsars:

Reduce it's Cooldown by 50%. decrease it's Damage by 50%, (forcing an Eldar to come twice as many into close combat, to get the enemy ship destoyed, but in the same overall time).

And finally give Eldar a way, to compensate the 50% more Damage they will take, from coming twice as many into short range, while no longer that much undetected as before.

Oh and of course, all pulsars should be 6k (max. 9k) no 12k. this is really to much.

For the Long range damage, eldar will suffer for beeing more often detected, let the holofield reduce long range damage by an amount, and reduce the chance of getting a critical dealt by a few of theese constant long range shots in an equal manner.

Reduce the damage down to 25%, while pulsar fishing around with no target and down to 50% while fire at a blip target.
If the Eldar don't detect the ship first, it will be his fault, and of course, an eldar would have the detection torpedo too on every ship equal to a shadow-class and above it. So Eldar can use this a few secounds before fireing their pulsars, and the enemy has still the chance of escape the detection.

Change the Saim-Hann ability finally into something like "undetectable", for a few secounds, 5-8 like the new taunt, just enough to come in and barely away to 6k with the boost, but the cd of this is twice the cd of pulsars, so as saim hann, you can only hide 2 of 4 hit and runs in a row, without taking your time, but remeber, you can choose abilitys like auguren disruptor to cover the other 2 fly by's, but for a slot and notundectectable, but your enemy don't know which one is coming the next time you fly at him. (Dominospirall).
Spoiler : :
Steam-Name: "Marilyn Manson"

"We bring only death, and leave only carrion. It is a message even a Human can understand."

"Death is my meat; terror my wine."

Image
Image

Braincandy
Posts: 28
Joined: 12 May 2016, 09:20
Contact:

Re: Eldar balance focus

Postby Braincandy » 12 May 2016, 09:36

I can not comment on taunt spam, I just got the game and have only dabbled with MP. I will say they whiffed bad on the Eldar though. Eldar ships are supposed to be nigh immune to ramming, lances and boardings. In fact, the best way by far to kill them is supposed to be massed macro-cannon fire. The reason being that Holofields make it extremely difficult to know exactly where the Eldar ship actually is, making precisely target weapons like lances and teleport attack nearly impossible to land. Mass indisciminate cannon fire is like WW2 flak, they don't need to know exactly where you are of they just fill that whole area of space with shells.

In short, I'd like to see them make Holofields work against everything, including ramming, get rid of that silly pulsar ability and balance Eldar from there. I'd also like to see Eldar ships be immune to ramming friendly Eldar.

Doing so would make it much more feasible for Eldar to operate at knife range with bouncing off of everything and exploding, it would lower their burst damage and make them more survivable.....likely more fun to play against and with.

Rothnocker
Posts: 22
Joined: 28 April 2016, 19:31
Contact:

Re: Eldar balance focus

Postby Rothnocker » 12 May 2016, 18:59

Harlequin wrote:- Make the Tauntduation down to 5-8 seconds, but the tauntet ship is for another 5-8 secounds immune to another taunt.

Taunt duration is already too short, especially if you remove the ability to chain Taunt. I would say one or the other would be acceptable, but both together is completely unacceptable. I do however like the idea of making your ship immune to Taunt for a short period, definitely gives back the chance of escape/survival.

Harlequin wrote:- Fix the bug of Wicro-Warp-Jump, because, taunt is just a keystone to catch an eldar, (works quite well), while Micro-Warp-Jump is just the keystone to get away of taunt, (but you have to choose your new position in an instant, there is no time to click like 30 times over a minute around till you are lucky enough to find a correct location to finally jump). Tthe Dominospirall the Devs orginally created works quite well with this in my opinion.

So you want to nerf the best method to actually be able to catch Eldar and buff the Eldar's ability to escape??? I agree that the Jump ability needs to be fixed, there's no reason why you have to be so far away from ships on the jump, distance available around ship should be about 1500-2500 max. Maybe implement a system where if you end up landing on a ship the one teleporting takes double damage from the collision if that's the concern.

Harlequin wrote:- remove the skill of the (don't remember the name, let's call it) "detection torpedo" and give it to all bigger (all above light cruisers and escorts) ships as a permanent ability without paying with a slot, and maybe adjust the cd down to a minute as well as reduce the area of effect, if needed. (remeber, you can more easily dodge this because of it's slow speed, but having them more spammable, while of course a smaller area, you can make a wall of 2 or 3 detection torpedos, to force the eldar to fly another direction if he wants to stay invisible, and don't forget, you can skill the other detection thing too, if you already have the first one for free, and needed more.

- rework the free slot of the "detection torpedo" into a counter-measure [Something like a "White Noise" Torpedo] for enemy detection-torpedos. this just brings the cloak- / decloakthing more into the core of the game like submarines. This should also despell the detectionprobe on the own hull, but needs a 3min cd. too. Also it brings the ability to cut a passage into an enemy detection wall to rush throughit for your next fly by, or on the opponent side, giving the ability to negate an eldar detection torpedo, to force the attacking eldar to shot into you as a blip insteat of a detected ship^^

It's an interesting concept, but I don't know if I like it personally. I like it as an ability like it currently is.

Harlequin wrote:And for the Pulsars:

Reduce it's Cooldown by 50%. decrease it's Damage by 50%, (forcing an Eldar to come twice as many into close combat, to get the enemy ship destoyed, but in the same overall time).

Just because the cooldown is shorter doesn't mean Eldar is FORCED to do anything. They will still take their time and go in when it's safe. Also cutting the cooldown in half also means that the Eldar gets more opportunities to shoot inbetween opponent's use of skills. So if you burn all your skills in an attempt to take out an Eldar ship and they still manage to escape then you are completely vulnerable for a few minutes(in game that's an eternity) to Eldar long distance harass.

All in all I don't think this is a solution to balance, but in the end would result in an unintentional buff to Eldar.

Harlequin wrote:And finally give Eldar a way, to compensate the 50% more Damage they will take, from coming twice as many into short range, while no longer that much undetected as before.

No.

Harlequin wrote:Oh and of course, all pulsars should be 6k (max. 9k) no 12k. this is really to much.

I'm growing more and more fond of a falloff damage system for Pulsar, that way in 2v2 the Eldar can stay on the outskirts and harass while their ally goes in. But this should only work as harassment and a means to finish off weakened ships and not a method that can actually destroy from over 9k.

Harlequin wrote:For the Long range damage, eldar will suffer for beeing more often detected, let the holofield reduce long range damage by an amount, and reduce the chance of getting a critical dealt by a few of theese constant long range shots in an equal manner.

No. Eldar are supposed to be long range harassers from the current system, but making them nearly immune to damage at long range is a terrible idea and an obvious buff to the race. Sometimes the Zzap cannons and Novas are the only possible method to do any form of damage to Eldar.

Harlequin wrote:Reduce the damage down to 25%, while pulsar fishing around with no target and down to 50% while fire at a blip target.
If the Eldar don't detect the ship first, it will be his fault, and of course, an eldar would have the detection torpedo too on every ship equal to a shadow-class and above it. So Eldar can use this a few secounds before fireing their pulsars, and the enemy has still the chance of escape the detection.

I do like the idea of needing to have sight on a target in order to use Pulsar, but not the part about the torpedoes as I stated earlier.

Harlequin wrote:Change the Saim-Hann ability finally into something like "undetectable", for a few secounds, 5-8 like the new taunt, just enough to come in and barely away to 6k with the boost, but the cd of this is twice the cd of pulsars, so as saim hann, you can only hide 2 of 4 hit and runs in a row, without taking your time, but remeber, you can choose abilitys like auguren disruptor to cover the other 2 fly by's, but for a slot and notundectectable, but your enemy don't know which one is coming the next time you fly at him. (Dominospirall).

There's already a favour that helps with avoiding detection, I don't think one that adds damage like that should also make you undetectable. That's making that specific favour the "must have" favour for Eldar. No I can't agree with this in the slightest, especially being able to use it that often.

Overall good to see some ideas thrown out, would love to see the discussion continue. Feel free to pick apart any of my posts as well.

User avatar
MadDemiurg
Posts: 436
Joined: 27 March 2016, 21:30
Contact:

Re: Eldar balance focus

Postby MadDemiurg » 12 May 2016, 20:54

To the people saying "just make Eldar like in TT":

Yeah, Eldar probably worked wery well in TT, however you've got to understand the constraints real time system has versus turn based.

In TT (I've never played it, so correct me if I'm wrong), Eldar were able to move twice per turn, thus approaching enemy to get into firing range, doing an attack and then disengaging back into the safe distance.

In real time, this does not work without either survivability or damage spike, because when you get into the firing range, you will be get shot at and you need to be able to trade efficiently when you're up close (and if you trade efficiently up close no matter what, you just stand and shoot, no need for hit and run). It was implemented as higher alpha. Eldar pulsar rof is 30 sec, most other high alpha weapons are 12 sec, which means that Eldar can trade 30 sec of their dps vs 12 sec of the enemy dps in theory. If they stay and exchange fire continuously Eldar should lose, but if they are able to deny enemy attacks by running away while coming back to deal their burst they should win.

I could also theoretically design another hit & run faction that doesn't have high alpha, but either has timed survivability buffs combined with otherwise fragile ships (so you've got to engage with your buffs up) or which has less total health but high regen (which allows to win by attrition). That would also suit hit & run but is even more distinct from TT.

HF working only when moving follows the same design thought: with HF working regardless of speed Eldar ships would be able to just float next to the enemy fleet and pummel it. However, I don't see it as necessary if Eldar are high alpha/lower sustain faction because that already forces Eldar to hit and run by itself.

Balancing starcannons in this picture is even more difficult - Eldar should not be able to outhoot other factions in direct exchanges of macro fire, but attacking from multiple direction to find dead angles and constantly putting pressure with them should work.

Draxynnic
Posts: 13
Joined: 07 May 2016, 02:54
Contact:

Re: Eldar balance focus

Postby Draxynnic » 12 May 2016, 22:49

Yeah, the 'two moves' thing is the hardest thing to make work in realtime. I think that the holofield mechanic is intended to reflect this, by rewarding movement - thus reflecting being able to potentially avoid return fire entirely as well as the basic effect of the holofield. I think it possibly punishes remaining still a bit too harshly given the micro burden that Eldar players are under and how easy it is for the flawed captain AI to come to a stop if left alone for a few seconds, however.

I do think that making pulsars operate more like normal lances (firing automatically in an arc, rather than straight ahead as an activated ability) would still help a lot in this regard. It'd take a lot of the micro burden off in general, and allow for close-range pulsar passes to be made without having to fly directly at the enemy ship for three seconds with all the risks that entails. As I've stated before, the game already has prow lances on the Dauntless and Firestorm firing at an angle from the muzzle, and if the Imperium has developed the laser optics to do that, you can bet the Eldar have too.

User avatar
XViper
Posts: 160
Joined: 23 April 2016, 17:15
Contact:

Re: Eldar balance focus

Postby XViper » 13 May 2016, 02:36

Draxynnic wrote:Yeah, the 'two moves' thing is the hardest thing to make work in realtime. I think that the holofield mechanic is intended to reflect this, by rewarding movement - thus reflecting being able to potentially avoid return fire entirely as well as the basic effect of the holofield. I think it possibly punishes remaining still a bit too harshly given the micro burden that Eldar players are under and how easy it is for the flawed captain AI to come to a stop if left alone for a few seconds, however.

I do think that making pulsars operate more like normal lances (firing automatically in an arc, rather than straight ahead as an activated ability) would still help a lot in this regard. It'd take a lot of the micro burden off in general, and allow for close-range pulsar passes to be made without having to fly directly at the enemy ship for three seconds with all the risks that entails. As I've stated before, the game already has prow lances on the Dauntless and Firestorm firing at an angle from the muzzle, and if the Imperium has developed the laser optics to do that, you can bet the Eldar have too.


I agree completely. I still see no reason Pulsars need to be an activated ability.

Braincandy
Posts: 28
Joined: 12 May 2016, 09:20
Contact:

Re: Eldar balance focus

Postby Braincandy » 13 May 2016, 05:01

MadDemiurg wrote:To the people saying "just make Eldar like in TT":

Yeah, Eldar probably worked wery well in TT, however you've got to understand the constraints real time system has versus turn based.

In TT (I've never played it, so correct me if I'm wrong), Eldar were able to move twice per turn, thus approaching enemy to get into firing range, doing an attack and then disengaging back into the safe distance.

In real time, this does not work without either survivability or damage spike, because when you get into the firing range, you will be get shot at and you need to be able to trade efficiently when you're up close (and if you trade efficiently up close no matter what, you just stand and shoot, no need for hit and run). It was implemented as higher alpha. Eldar pulsar rof is 30 sec, most other high alpha weapons are 12 sec, which means that Eldar can trade 30 sec of their dps vs 12 sec of the enemy dps in theory. If they stay and exchange fire continuously Eldar should lose, but if they are able to deny enemy attacks by running away while coming back to deal their burst they should win.

I could also theoretically design another hit & run faction that doesn't have high alpha, but either has timed survivability buffs combined with otherwise fragile ships (so you've got to engage with your buffs up) or which has less total health but high regen (which allows to win by attrition). That would also suit hit & run but is even more distinct from TT.

HF working only when moving follows the same design thought: with HF working regardless of speed Eldar ships would be able to just float next to the enemy fleet and pummel it. However, I don't see it as necessary if Eldar are high alpha/lower sustain faction because that already forces Eldar to hit and run by itself.

Balancing starcannons in this picture is even more difficult - Eldar should not be able to outhoot other factions in direct exchanges of macro fire, but attacking from multiple direction to find dead angles and constantly putting pressure with them should work.



You are correct, Eldar did get a double move in the TT but that is largely irrelevant here. In my opinion, the speed and agility of the ships is represented well enough, especially if you take Vaul's Maneuver.

As I said, the Holofields in this game has it's weaknesses totally reversed. It worked exceptionally well against all of the things that murder Eldar ships in Armada. It had a 5 out of 6 chance to ignore almost anything. It's biggest weakness was the one thing it works well against in Armada, massed broadsides of basic cannons. It's effects in Armada would be similar to counting macro-cannon fire as if it were one range bracket farther than it actually was. So an Eldar ship could park right next to an Imperial ship and do a ton of damage with a fully functioning holofield. It would be immune to almost everything, but the macro-cannons would still hit enough and Eldar ships can't stand up to it for long.

The other big problem with Eldar is that they are fast and squirrely in this game, and can easily bounce off of themselves or enemy ships. That was no issue in the turn based table top and their fragile natures were not balanced around slamming into other ships.

All that really needs to be changed in the weakness of the Holofield, weaker against cannons and strong as hell against everything else. Maybe buff that upgrade that sets a floor to minimum holofield effectiveness. Make Pulsars a regular lance with a high damage rating. Fix their absurd weakness to collisions.

That last part is where I am a bit unsure about though. I am not really sure how to do it myself. Maybe remove clipping on Eldar ships, so they can move right through each other...

User avatar
XViper
Posts: 160
Joined: 23 April 2016, 17:15
Contact:

Re: Eldar balance focus

Postby XViper » 13 May 2016, 05:45

Braincandy wrote:The other big problem with Eldar is that they are fast and squirrely in this game, and can easily bounce off of themselves or enemy ships. That was no issue in the turn based table top and their fragile natures were not balanced around slamming into other ships.

Fix their absurd weakness to collisions.

That last part is where I am a bit unsure about though. I am not really sure how to do it myself. Maybe remove clipping on Eldar ships, so they can move right through each other...


I suggested an idea here that kinda covers the whole collision situation.

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3197

Unfortunately its being written off into the 'too hard' basket. (although I'm not entirely convinced of that).

The problem is we're playing a 2D game in '3D space', and not using any '3D' mechanics. Ships don't even pretend the Z axis even exists.

Braincandy
Posts: 28
Joined: 12 May 2016, 09:20
Contact:

Re: Eldar balance focus

Postby Braincandy » 13 May 2016, 08:22

XViper wrote:
Braincandy wrote:The other big problem with Eldar is that they are fast and squirrely in this game, and can easily bounce off of themselves or enemy ships. That was no issue in the turn based table top and their fragile natures were not balanced around slamming into other ships.

Fix their absurd weakness to collisions.

That last part is where I am a bit unsure about though. I am not really sure how to do it myself. Maybe remove clipping on Eldar ships, so they can move right through each other...


I suggested an idea here that kinda covers the whole collision situation.

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3197

Unfortunately its being written off into the 'too hard' basket. (although I'm not entirely convinced of that).

The problem is we're playing a 2D game in '3D space', and not using any '3D' mechanics. Ships don't even pretend the Z axis even exists.


That issue was addressed by the table top game. The ship you see is just a fancy model showing what it looks like. In game terms, the actual ship is a tiny spec located somewhere in the area of space covered by it's base.

That's why a spaceship has weapons that only reach 5 or 6 times the length of the model. That is representing, in the case of a battleship, a tiny speck that is about 8km long that is shooting several hundred thousand km.


Return to “Eldar Corsairs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests