Eldar balance focus

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Mr Morden
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Re: Eldar balance focus

Postby Mr Morden » 06 May 2016, 15:20

Revener wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:Maybe have it that the Eldar player always has tactical co-ordinator and the opponent can't use it (unless also Eldar) - not sure if that's technically possible but would be fun to have the Eldar player watching the MonKeigh flounder about and he or she has loads of time ;)

or not............

LOL oh the rage that would reach the forums :)


Techniclaly only the Eldar players would know ;)
Imperial - Lady Lukara (8), Chaos - Abraxus (8), Eldar - Flower of Carnage (2) , Orks - Big Bazza (6), Wolve - Floki (6) :mrgreen:

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Solitaire_7
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Re: Eldar balance focus

Postby Solitaire_7 » 06 May 2016, 18:38

MadDemiurg wrote:
Solitaire_7 wrote:With the imminent arrival next month ? Of the genetically modified Monkeighs (Space Marines) I pray the changes will still make us viable against such heavily armed, relatively fast (for Monkeighs), and heavily armoured foes. Time will tell all.........


SM look very dead to Eldar if AP is not changed. Their cruisers in campaign have 75 armour but the same health as LCs. And they're fast, but not faster than Chaos.


I vaguely remember them being susceptible to mass lance fire but very bouncy v macro but that was TT. Lance and pulsar needed a "4+" on a D6 to negate any armor SM included but you needed a 6 for macros. Hmmmm ah yes bombardment cannon that was it that was the equalizer big aoe more accurate than a nova made a nasty mess of holofielded ships and thunderhawk gunships running fighter and assault boat actions. happy days happy days.
"Let your enemies fear, for a Harlequin of the Laughing God dances at your side."

Black Library Approved : viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

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Revener
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Re: Eldar balance focus

Postby Revener » 09 May 2016, 01:33

Solitaire_7 wrote:
MadDemiurg wrote:
Solitaire_7 wrote:With the imminent arrival next month ? Of the genetically modified Monkeighs (Space Marines) I pray the changes will still make us viable against such heavily armed, relatively fast (for Monkeighs), and heavily armoured foes. Time will tell all.........


SM look very dead to Eldar if AP is not changed. Their cruisers in campaign have 75 armour but the same health as LCs. And they're fast, but not faster than Chaos.


I vaguely remember them being susceptible to mass lance fire but very bouncy v macro but that was TT. Lance and pulsar needed a "4+" on a D6 to negate any armor SM included but you needed a 6 for macros. Hmmmm ah yes bombardment cannon that was it that was the equalizer big aoe more accurate than a nova made a nasty mess of holofielded ships and thunderhawk gunships running fighter and assault boat actions. happy days happy days.

Yeah bombardment cannons will probably be similar to a 6k megakannon that can hit the target :)

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Solitaire_7
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Re: Eldar balance focus

Postby Solitaire_7 » 09 May 2016, 15:03

Lets do some maths ! We have voidstalker (pulsars and starcannons), eclipse (pulsars and starcannons), Shadow (starcannons). Aurora (pulsar + torps), Solaris (starcannons), Hemlock (pulsars + starcannons), Nightshade (Torps + Starcannons), Aconite (lots of starcannons), and Hellebore (pulsar Starcannons n torps).

What percentage off our fleet use puilsars as a part of their arsenal ?

5/9ths of the Eldar fleet use pulsar so 55.55 % recurring.

Okay with escorts 2/4 or 50% use them

When you start playing in higher level games needing cruisers or better 2/3rds or 66.66% recurring.

What do we learn about all of this ? We learn that the devs better tread lightly with the changes or do a total re-think of how pulsars do their thing.

Eldar will, as it stands, have to field pulsar ships in low to mid level 1v1 engagements if their shadows and solaris get lost in the warp or knocked out of a match or both. This would also be true in 2v2 to a lesser degree.

In higher level engagements as the above figures dictate it is even more likely that you will have to get good at 6k with a Pulsar at some point..............
"Let your enemies fear, for a Harlequin of the Laughing God dances at your side."

Black Library Approved : viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

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MaxRim
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Re: Eldar balance focus

Postby MaxRim » 11 May 2016, 08:16

Solitaire_7 wrote:Lets do some maths ! We have voidstalker (pulsars and starcannons), eclipse (pulsars and starcannons), Shadow (starcannons). Aurora (pulsar + torps), Solaris (starcannons), Hemlock (pulsars + starcannons), Nightshade (Torps + Starcannons), Aconite (lots of starcannons), and Hellebore (pulsar Starcannons n torps).

What percentage off our fleet use puilsars as a part of their arsenal ?

5/9ths of the Eldar fleet use pulsar so 55.55 % recurring.

Okay with escorts 2/4 or 50% use them

When you start playing in higher level games needing cruisers or better 2/3rds or 66.66% recurring.

What do we learn about all of this ? We learn that the devs better tread lightly with the changes or do a total re-think of how pulsars do their thing.

Eldar will, as it stands, have to field pulsar ships in low to mid level 1v1 engagements if their shadows and solaris get lost in the warp or knocked out of a match or both. This would also be true in 2v2 to a lesser degree.

In higher level engagements as the above figures dictate it is even more likely that you will have to get good at 6k with a Pulsar at some point..............



i cant believe you are still trying LOL! Have you seen the steam BFG armada forum posts? people want eldar entirely removed from the game. Give up dude, ur favourite fictional race is going to get NERFED - BADLY! and it NEEDS IT! - BADLY!

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Re: Eldar balance focus

Postby MaxRim » 11 May 2016, 08:21

Revener wrote:First fix the basics then when that is done start messing around with the favours and upgrades.

Problem at the moment is that we are pushed into a hit and run and fire deathstarlaser tactic unless you want o spends 20min kiting with the other ships. Reducing the range on the pulsar wil only push eldar further in the hide everyway we can then shoot and run builds, because I doubt they will buff the starcannon that much dpm wise, besides it alrady have a fairly high dpm for a "macro" cannon the problem is staying in the window of fire long enough.

Part of that problem is the faulty holofields that some developer dreamt up that goes down if you stand still, holofields should always be up as they are in TT.

The other problem is the armour, eldar have 25% armour in TT they have 50% (chaos 66.66%, IN 83.33%/66.66%, ork 83.33/66.66/50% in TT). They other races are closer to the armour they shoud have , the eldar have half the armour they should have.

These two thing makes eldar more way more fragile than they are in the boardgame that coupled with the fragile trait really makes you not want to get hit at all. For example one Mega cannon shot that get through can cripple a light cruiser.

If you want to use starcannons you have to move towards the opponent to stay on target and get some damage done since the holofield force you to move for no reason since they are implemented the wrong way.

Also Holofields should have a chance to stop torps and bombers. Eldar get good shields but fragile in return when they do get hit and less HP thats is the tradeoff.

If you compare all the races to how they are in the boardgame most of them are fairly close but the devs have made Eldar into something completley different.

Solution:
Make pulse work as in the TT a normal lance that have a 50% chance to shoot again up to 3 times total if you do damage. Then a little bit longer reload compared to the average lance I guess would be prudent since this is an RTS not a turn based game :)

Holofields should always be up and work against torps and bombers too so you actually don't get crippled when you go for a strafing run. Wich is what Eldar are about since in TT the only thing they have that shoot further than 6km is torps and bombers apart from the voidstalker wich shoots 9km (45cm) but in return it is slower. In the TT you can't run around basically invisible.

Armour should be set to TT values or but since no other ship have their TT value but a little bit lower and I have done the relative match for that somewher around 40% seems right in relations to the others.

If this is done the ship work you can go in with your speed and do strafing runs with your frontal guns and get a longer window of fire or you can actually stop at 6km without your holofields going down and then go awy when the oppent turns towards you.

Eldar should play like the other races with a twist not like something completley different. Something completley differnt that you have to cater to specifically to beat wil always piss players off since in all reality IN/Chaos/ork can basically be beaten with totally randomized builds whereas it is really hard to beat eldar if you lack certain skills.


I've also spent a few days trying to play with starcannons and bombers it is really underwhelming.


----edit-----
P.S I actually quite like the Alaotic Cameleoline Alloy that the topic startes so no use for, can set up nice ambushes with it.



Another fan boy wanting buffs to eldar lol. double their armour, make their holofields twice as good by making them on 100% of the time and block bombers / torps? wtf? lol!

Lots of people here trying to ruin a good game :P

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Re: Eldar balance focus

Postby Revener » 11 May 2016, 12:18

MaxRim wrote:
Revener wrote:First fix the basics then when that is done start messing around with the favours and upgrades.

Problem at the moment is that we are pushed into a hit and run and fire deathstarlaser tactic unless you want o spends 20min kiting with the other ships. Reducing the range on the pulsar wil only push eldar further in the hide everyway we can then shoot and run builds, because I doubt they will buff the starcannon that much dpm wise, besides it alrady have a fairly high dpm for a "macro" cannon the problem is staying in the window of fire long enough.

Part of that problem is the faulty holofields that some developer dreamt up that goes down if you stand still, holofields should always be up as they are in TT.

The other problem is the armour, eldar have 25% armour in TT they have 50% (chaos 66.66%, IN 83.33%/66.66%, ork 83.33/66.66/50% in TT). They other races are closer to the armour they shoud have , the eldar have half the armour they should have.

These two thing makes eldar more way more fragile than they are in the boardgame that coupled with the fragile trait really makes you not want to get hit at all. For example one Mega cannon shot that get through can cripple a light cruiser.

If you want to use starcannons you have to move towards the opponent to stay on target and get some damage done since the holofield force you to move for no reason since they are implemented the wrong way.

Also Holofields should have a chance to stop torps and bombers. Eldar get good shields but fragile in return when they do get hit and less HP thats is the tradeoff.

If you compare all the races to how they are in the boardgame most of them are fairly close but the devs have made Eldar into something completley different.

Solution:
Make pulse work as in the TT a normal lance that have a 50% chance to shoot again up to 3 times total if you do damage. Then a little bit longer reload compared to the average lance I guess would be prudent since this is an RTS not a turn based game :)

Holofields should always be up and work against torps and bombers too so you actually don't get crippled when you go for a strafing run. Wich is what Eldar are about since in TT the only thing they have that shoot further than 6km is torps and bombers apart from the voidstalker wich shoots 9km (45cm) but in return it is slower. In the TT you can't run around basically invisible.

Armour should be set to TT values or but since no other ship have their TT value but a little bit lower and I have done the relative match for that somewher around 40% seems right in relations to the others.

If this is done the ship work you can go in with your speed and do strafing runs with your frontal guns and get a longer window of fire or you can actually stop at 6km without your holofields going down and then go awy when the oppent turns towards you.

Eldar should play like the other races with a twist not like something completley different. Something completley differnt that you have to cater to specifically to beat wil always piss players off since in all reality IN/Chaos/ork can basically be beaten with totally randomized builds whereas it is really hard to beat eldar if you lack certain skills.


I've also spent a few days trying to play with starcannons and bombers it is really underwhelming.


----edit-----
P.S I actually quite like the Alaotic Cameleoline Alloy that the topic startes so no use for, can set up nice ambushes with it.



Another fan boy wanting buffs to eldar lol. double their armour, make their holofields twice as good by making them on 100% of the time and block bombers / torps? wtf? lol!

Lots of people here trying to ruin a good game :P

In what way was any of that "fanboi´ism" I didn't even play eldar in BFG I played chaos.

My proppsition is basically a straight TT translation in a way similar to how the other races are translated from TT.
Get back to basics and then take the balancing from there.
Because yes pulse lasers as they are noww is a problem but just nerfing them is not the whole solution.
Eldar are supposed to be hard to hit but fall apart when you hit them and tbh you do hit so it hurts even when the holofields are at full capacity even now.

Eldars are supposed to keep away and then go in and shoot when they feel they can get away with it, but it shuld not be like it is right now no risk and high reward unless you meet a fleet with lots of skills that mess with you. Hell even if I get a beacon attached to my eclipse with no range upgrade ( on purpose) I can still deal alot of damage with it unless the opponent have the right skills up and not on cooldown (wich is long). Yes there are other tactics to kill eldar too without skills but if you have already lost some ships it is an uphill struggle. And normally if you go for it and focus, it is normally only the voidstalker that is really hard to get killed.

In contrast all other fleet can beat each other with totally randomized ship builds.

We want to get at least some diversity and get away from the pulsar only fleets.
For exampler starcannons are not that bad DPM but you can not stay around and shoot them long enough unless you are behind someone. That is a holofield issue, since they are implemented the wrong way.

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Mr Morden
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Re: Eldar balance focus

Postby Mr Morden » 11 May 2016, 15:12

Eldar on teh tabel top move twice - not sure how thats translateable except by even higher speeds

Also they tend to die from moving through blast markers................
Imperial - Lady Lukara (8), Chaos - Abraxus (8), Eldar - Flower of Carnage (2) , Orks - Big Bazza (6), Wolve - Floki (6) :mrgreen:

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Re: Eldar balance focus

Postby CatnipAddict » 11 May 2016, 18:25

MaxRim wrote:
Revener wrote:First fix the basics then when that is done start messing around with the favours and upgrades.

Problem at the moment is that we are pushed into a hit and run and fire deathstarlaser tactic unless you want o spends 20min kiting with the other ships. Reducing the range on the pulsar wil only push eldar further in the hide everyway we can then shoot and run builds, because I doubt they will buff the starcannon that much dpm wise, besides it alrady have a fairly high dpm for a "macro" cannon the problem is staying in the window of fire long enough.

Part of that problem is the faulty holofields that some developer dreamt up that goes down if you stand still, holofields should always be up as they are in TT.

The other problem is the armour, eldar have 25% armour in TT they have 50% (chaos 66.66%, IN 83.33%/66.66%, ork 83.33/66.66/50% in TT). They other races are closer to the armour they shoud have , the eldar have half the armour they should have.

These two thing makes eldar more way more fragile than they are in the boardgame that coupled with the fragile trait really makes you not want to get hit at all. For example one Mega cannon shot that get through can cripple a light cruiser.

If you want to use starcannons you have to move towards the opponent to stay on target and get some damage done since the holofield force you to move for no reason since they are implemented the wrong way.

Also Holofields should have a chance to stop torps and bombers. Eldar get good shields but fragile in return when they do get hit and less HP thats is the tradeoff.

If you compare all the races to how they are in the boardgame most of them are fairly close but the devs have made Eldar into something completley different.

Solution:
Make pulse work as in the TT a normal lance that have a 50% chance to shoot again up to 3 times total if you do damage. Then a little bit longer reload compared to the average lance I guess would be prudent since this is an RTS not a turn based game :)

Holofields should always be up and work against torps and bombers too so you actually don't get crippled when you go for a strafing run. Wich is what Eldar are about since in TT the only thing they have that shoot further than 6km is torps and bombers apart from the voidstalker wich shoots 9km (45cm) but in return it is slower. In the TT you can't run around basically invisible.

Armour should be set to TT values or but since no other ship have their TT value but a little bit lower and I have done the relative match for that somewher around 40% seems right in relations to the others.

If this is done the ship work you can go in with your speed and do strafing runs with your frontal guns and get a longer window of fire or you can actually stop at 6km without your holofields going down and then go awy when the oppent turns towards you.

Eldar should play like the other races with a twist not like something completley different. Something completley differnt that you have to cater to specifically to beat wil always piss players off since in all reality IN/Chaos/ork can basically be beaten with totally randomized builds whereas it is really hard to beat eldar if you lack certain skills.


I've also spent a few days trying to play with starcannons and bombers it is really underwhelming.


----edit-----
P.S I actually quite like the Alaotic Cameleoline Alloy that the topic startes so no use for, can set up nice ambushes with it.



Another fan boy wanting buffs to eldar lol. double their armour, make their holofields twice as good by making them on 100% of the time and block bombers / torps? wtf? lol!

Lots of people here trying to ruin a good game :P

Are you okay?

Rothnocker
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Re: Eldar balance focus

Postby Rothnocker » 11 May 2016, 18:42

Trying to get this back on target.

Alright, I am an avid hater of Eldar, look at other forum posts and you'll likely get that impression from me, they are currently OP. Yes I said it, OP, the Eldar really are and saying they aren't either means you have been lucky not to get faced against any with skill or you're one of those that defends their OP builds because you play to win and not so much for fun.

Eldar can be fun, I know they can, but currently matches against them are not fun. That's why(as someone else stated) when an Ork wins by ramming you all over the place, a Chaos manages to stay just outside range, or an IN Novas from a cloud people still say gg, because those are strats that CAN be countered. Eldar Pulsar spam from 9k+ range is not counterable except maybe...MAYBE...with Chaos. That's not fun gameplay and definitely needs to be addressed, this is a game afterall where the overall goal is fun right?

Despite my extreme dislike of Eldar I can admit that a straight nerf to Pulsar could end with Eldar being the most useless of the races, so since I saw this thread I want to make a long...very long...winded post on what I think could be done to improve Eldar's fun factor both with and against them.

PULSAR:
The hot topic right? I have made several suggestions to help balance the Pulsar spam and all(of course) were met with hostility by the crowd trying to defend their precious OP build. I don't want to see an outright nerf, just a rebalance to get us back into the fun experience. Not all of these are needed, just want to put my suggestion
1. Here's a couple that would work together and I feel make a nerf to range and base damage unnecessary
-Reduce damage of Pulsar when target shields are up. 75% reduction in damage.
-Disperse Pulsar when target is in Stasis, Stasis works as a shield that negates the use of Pulsar

2. Reduce Range(I'm less fond of this the more I think about it). The range definitely shouldn't exceed 9k, but going up to 9k is still counterable.

3. Falloff Damage: This option seems more and more like it should be implemented in some form, with this you wouldn't even need to drop the 12k range it would just be much less useful at that far off. My thoughts are a bit different than the person that originally presented this though
-9k-12k 50% of normal damage, still a decent amount but something that can be mostly avoided by the opponent
-6k-9k 85% of normal damage, allows the player to remain in that sweet spot that works well for an Eldar harasser with a slight reduction to total damage
-3k-6k 100% of damage
-under 3k +100% damage, essentially this becomes a suicide charge you send in your ship and if they don't get the taunt or trakktor or w/e off in time then you utterly decimate their ship. Also works as a last hurrah if you know you're going down due to them pulling you into that close a range with trakktor/taunt/teleport combos.

FAVOURS:
I think most of the favours for Eldar are just fine, that being said I also haven't played much with them so until I get some more time with them my view might be slightly off I admit. I do want to make a couple suggestions based off what I've seen/read regarding the favours.
1. Saim-Hann: I've read a bunch about how the 50% increase to damage is a bit much, personally I don't agree with that statement despite the amount of pain that is inflicted by Pulsar with this favour active. I do beleive however that this 50% increase should have a limit of only being applied with 6k range. 6k is the base range of all Starcannon weaponry and though it is really dangerous to get in this close you also have to bear in mind that you have the ability to almost completely blind the enemy so they won't detect you without taking extra detection skills.
-Phantom Disruption: Increase duration by 5-10 seconds
-Ambusher: Increase damage bost to 60% but only within 6k range

2. Ulthwe: My experience with this favour has been less pleasant than with Saim-Hann personally. The general build for this is 2 ships with Ulthwe, both with Stasis Bomb. They pop double Stasis bomb early on and with w/e is caught inside they immediately drop Maelstrom dealing severe damage. On top of that they also use the Pulsar spam which quickly makes short work of w/e is left of your ships even without the bonus damage from Saim-Hann. It's a great strategy, but once again a strategy that can't be countered once in the Stasis, the ones that have the most trouble with this being of course Ork with their slow *** ships lol. Here's my suggestion to balance this favour:
-Decrease Maelstrom cast range to 7500
-Increase Maelstrom damage to 4.5 per second
-Increase Maelstrom duration to 50 seconds
-Maelstrom does 0 damage if shields are up
This allows you to somewhat counter Maelstrom as long as your ships have shield recharge or transfer. You'll still suffer some damage because they'll obviously just equip Disruption Bomb and take your shields right before dropping Maelstrom, but you can recharge and stop taking damage.

HOLOFIELDS:
I have seen much discussion about making the Holofields for Eldar more effective, I definitely agree with this wholeheartedly. I don't however believe they need to be active whether or not the ship is moving, the current system creates a unique experience with Eldar and it should stay that way. I do have a couple of ideas based of experience and reading on these forums.

1. Torpedo Interference: It has been suggested that Holofields should block torpedoes AND strike craft, I agree in regards to the torpedoes, but not the strike craft. Strike craft being skilled pilots that would know how to strike at the ship, torpedoes being something launched on a trajectory(spray and pray). I think Holofields should have a percentage chance to "disarm" torpedoes and should work for all torpedoes, though not too high a percentage IMO.
-40% chance to disarm torpedoes within 2500 range of craft(maybe include an upgrade that can increase it to 50%)

2. Glancing Blow: An idea struck me after reading another thread which brings up an interesting concept but not one that would work without completely redesigning the gameplay in it's current form. Eldar Ships are super maneuverable right? What if the Holofields could allow a sort of dodge increase to avoid or reduce ramming damage sustained.
-Standard: 0% chance to dodge/reduce ram damage
-Max: 30% chance to dodge/reduce ram damage
Personally I foresee many angry rants from myself when playing Ork and lining up a perfect ram only to see no damage or minimal damage done to an Eldar ship, but it would also allow Eldar to get in a bit closer without instant death. Lets face it this game is more fun right in the middle of the action. But this would allow the choice of making a "brawler" Eldar cruiser.

Ok, long winded rant done for now I really hope to get some realistic feedback on my thoughts opinions. Knowing a bit about coding all these changes could be done reasonably easily if time and attention were directed at it, but there's also the factor of whether or not these changes would meet the dev team's own desired direction.

TL;DR:
Don't nerf the Eldar, create alternative options
Pulsar:
-In Stasis no projectile art or damage to ships within(can do the same with Zzap, but Lances should be fine
-75% reduction to Pulsar Damage to shields(same damage for Hull)
-Reduce Range(already in the works)
-Falloff Damage: 9k-12k 50%; 6k-9k 85%; 3k-6k 100%; under 3k +100%

Holofields:
-Torpedo Interference: 40% chance to disarm torpedoes within 2500 range of craft(maybe include an upgrade that can increase it to 50%)
-Glancing Blow Standard: 0% chance to dodge/reduce ram damage
-Glancing Blow Max: 30% chance to dodge/reduce ram damage

FAVOURS
Saim-Hann:
-Phantom Disruption: Increase duration by 5-10 seconds
-Ambusher: Increase damage bost to 60% but only within 6k range
Ulthwe:
-Decrease Maelstrom cast range to 7500
-Increase Maelstrom damage to 4.5 per second
-Increase Maelstrom duration to 50 seconds
-Maelstrom does 0 damage if shields are up


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