Eldar balance focus

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MadDemiurg
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Eldar balance focus

Postby MadDemiurg » 04 May 2016, 14:07

Ok, the Eldar are going to get balancing attention next. They indeed have a ton of problems, both on the UP and OP sides. I'm going to consolidate some of my ideas as well as some (frequently) voiced suggestions, as well as some speculations on the topic. Please try to keep is constructive.

Personally, I'm speaking from my experience playing both with and vs Eldar. I don't find Eldar overpowered atm, but they need some specific builds to counter them and can be untouchable if you don't have the right build. VS specialised builds they can even feel UP at times though. So the goal imo should be bringing Eldar into more competitive area for standard gameplay, while eliminating some of the cheeses (mostly ability spam/combos) that are hard to deal with as Eldar and basically force them into their current playstyle.

1. Pulsar

Pulsar do very high burst from the range that is out of reach for many fleet builds, especially while they lack upgrades and skills. I was probably the first to suggest to remove the range upgrade in the closed testing, However, as the strategies developed I see this as a viable option only if a number of cheeses that allow to easily deal with Eldar at 7.5k range or less are dealt with.

Also reducing pulsar range affects stealth based Eldar favours, making stealth attack very difficult to execute. That needs rework.

Al in all, I support the range upgrade removal, cause it would allow to combat Eldar in direct engagements, but that needs to come with some other changes.

2. Starcannons

A popular idea is to increase the firing arc to say 180 degrees. They do OK dps, but they have pathetic uptime on the target as it's impossible to keep a prow weapon locked on while having to constantly move to maintain holofields and avoid ramming. Imo that SHOULD not be an upgrade, cause it would be another "must have" for ships like shadow, and there are enough "almost mandatory" upgrades already.

Additionally, I don't find 3k AP upgrade and accuracy starcannon upgrades too useful. Accuracy is only useful combined with the range upgrade and the dps increase is fairly marginal for Eldar. AP is not viable for Eldar atm because 3k range means death for Eldar ships usually.

So, Imo, Eldar have room for 3 new weapon upgrades - 1 replacing pulsar range and 2 new starcannon upgrades instead of the old ones.

3. Eldar movement and survivability

Eldar rely on their movement for survivability. They are also super vulnerable to ram damage. I don't suggest complete rework here, but some abilities that restrict Eldar movement can destroy Eldar all too easily. Right now Eldar counter many of these by staying out of range (which is 5-7.5k).

3.1 Taunt. Taunt duration nerf did help (otherwise Eldar would be dead meat atm), but the problem still exists in form of chain taunts. 4 taunts is 30 seconds of CC which is plenty to waste an Eldar ship. Some solutions here:
-Remove taunt :D
-Make ships immune to taunt for x seconds after being taunted to prevent chaining
-Give Eldar some ability that allows to break taunts or give temporary taunt immunity

3.2 Traktors. Same issue with taunt. in 7.5k range traktor spam can easily set up a ram which would likely cripple most Eldar ships.
Souutions:
-Eldar have traktor resist (lower pull distance). I don't like this though.
-Traktors can not be chained (Same temp immunity after using it as with taunt). This would need to come with a buff to traktor pull distance however, as a single traktor is not all that great atm.
-Eldar get some panic button vs ramming (new skill)

3.3 Slaanesh silence (whatever it's called). Allows to easily outrun Eldar and ram/whatever. Imo it should not disable solar sails boost, losing all skills for 30 sec is bad enough, as you already rely on Vaul's/MWJ to get out of sticky situations.

3.4 Lightinig strikes. As Eldar ships have no shield, these are really crippling to unfavoured Eldar ships. Eldar counter this by staying out of range (which will no longer be an option) or using Ultwe/Biel Tan. Leveling will become really painful without favours, and the aforementioned favours will become must have. To avoid this:

-Holofields give +20 troop value at max (scales)
-Ultwe psychic blockade replaced with a new ability

4. Other weaknesses

There are a few other things that do not sit quite right for me.

4.1 Novas. Atm novas are one of the only ways for IN to deal with Eldar. However, if Eldar are forced to take closer engagements I believe MU will become really unbalanced in IN favour. It's already pretty bad in midgame when IN gets dominators and Eldar are still stuck with Auroras. They also make fielding esorts unviable in the MU.

My opinion is that holofields should reduce nova damage by 50% at max (damage mitigation, not miss chance). That would be fair given no shields and low hull values for Eldar.

4.2 Recon Probes - Basically since they can be attached to Eldar ships w/o knocking out the shields they make the supposedly stealthy faction really bad at stealth vs knowing opponents. Imo they should not be attachable to Eldar ships with 50%+ holofields or at least have a significant miss chance.

5. Favours.

Biel Tan - fine

Ultwe - as I mentioned, I would like holofields to give LS protection, so psychic blockade can be replaced with another passive like buffing allied ship accuracy in an aoe (guide) or increased augur range, which would both suit Ultwe flavour

Saim Hann - either doesn't work or works in a weird way atm, but even theoretically current mechanics make it impossible to use with starcannons an with pulsar range nerf they would be very difficult to use with pulsar. I would do the following:
-20% solar sails cd (Saim Hann is supposed to be speedy)
-Damage bonus for attacking side armour and a bigger one for attacking rear armour - to reward flanking (not sure about the numbers, but definitely less than 50% cause that's ridiculously OP)

Alaitoc - I don't think Cameoline Alloy is doing anything useful atm. Maybe replace with an ability to turn to a blip once out of detection range? You can already sort of do this by stopping and then restarting your ships, but it creates unnecessary micro overhead.

6. New upgrade ideas.

-Stealth for torpedoes (not visible at long range)
-Starcannons have a chance to ignore armour at higher range (replaces standard AP). Basically, lower damage boost but more range
-Starcannons prioritize subsystems better (or just crit rate upgrade)

7. New skill ideas:

Phase shift - Eldar ship can pass through other ships and hazards without taking damage, but it can not deal any damage itself. 3-4 sec duration, 60 sec cd.
Combat clarity: Gives immunity to any movement impairing effects for 20 sec, and breaks the ones currently affecting the ship, 120 sec cd.

Will be adding more ideas later.
Last edited by MadDemiurg on 04 May 2016, 14:33, edited 4 times in total.

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Solitaire_7
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Re: Eldar balance focus

Postby Solitaire_7 » 04 May 2016, 14:19

You could make the taunt skill a universal cooldown so when you pop one they all go onto cd. I guess that cd would need reducing a little to compensate ?

My thoughts from another post on the same subject although you make some compelling points !

I'm going to say the unthinkable ! Eldar need a buff. Thats right a buff and let us dis-spell some other popular miss-conceptions ! I see everywhere "I was one shot by a pulsar". This is utter utter non-sense. Battleships can one shot escorts and two shot light cruisers. However light cruiser spam can easily overcome a battleship with a mwj taunt board ram using adeptus mechanicus favour for the extra skill and upgrade. Macro batteries pushed out to 9k-12k in conjunction with a recon beacon will erode your beautiful space yacht to dust over time. Combine that with nova cannons and ork light cruisers with Nova Kannons from blood axe favours (you can get them down to 97pts each so x3 per 300pt battle) and you will spend most of the fight running and hiding. When eventually you pluck up the courage to engage you will be taunt spammed down or smashed to smithereens as you get traktored through a minefield or each other or the prow of an oncoming ship.

Sure nerf the pulsars to 6k and remove the spike damage. Lower their damage and lower their cooldown to compensate. This will smooth out the dps. It is that spike damage that is upsetting the monkeighs. Buff the star cannons, count ships with active holofields as immune to recon probes unless the holofields are down. A luxury all the other races have with their shields. I mean really how do you attach a recon beacon to a disrupted image of an eldar vessel in the first place ? The fields should confuse the sensors on the probe same as they do with lance targeting arrays and to a certain extent macros.

Talking of which bring the save vs macro up from 50% to 60% right now they hurt more than a warlocks curse.
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Orkan
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Re: Eldar balance focus

Postby Orkan » 04 May 2016, 20:28

I think Range of all Eldar weaponry should be left as is. What needs to be adressed for balance is that pulsars should not fire on a blip or even blind say into a gas could or approximate location. That I feel would alleviate a lot of unfairness. Players who know how to fight against the faction using detection or probes/recon do fine even in this patch and 15k range on chaos and imperials (no less future Tau) is definately an answer to Eldars 12k max already.

Pulsar damage should also stay as is if they increase cooldown say to 40 seconds. That way there is more time between attack runs and a lower dps overall.

Star Cannons should be buffed to make the Shadow and Solaris more viable vs non-eldar and the Eclipse should receive 2 launch bays instead of 1 to make progression to the voidstalkers 4 not such a huge jump.

Another general problem is that we should get more ship slots in order to tailor a build for countering other factions as well as focusing on alternative tactics. I feel that this is one of the main solutions to pl;ayers who have chosen ships and upgrades that are a poor counter to Eldar and then complain. More ships slots overall will allow viable alternative ships and upgrade builds versus the present and coming factions as well as serve as make all that extra renown usefull when ships start to reach level 10. (where eventually every regular player will sit at relatively soon). This can only help in balancing as well as longevity for the game overall.

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Re: Eldar balance focus

Postby MaxRim » 05 May 2016, 08:30

Do NOT listen to solitare, he is a vivid Eldar fan boy and will do ANYTHING in his power to make them as OP as possible!

Chaining all your taunts which have a HUGE cooldown to kill ONE eldar ship is FAIR GAME! Why? Because a good eldar would have instantly killed a chosen ship in your fleet before you even pull off your first taunt or traktor! EVEN WITH THE RANGE NERF IT WILL HAPPEN! If you can't kill a ship you want as soon as you pop your pulsars as eldar YOU ARE PLAYING ELDAR WRONG! You must be missing many pulsars etc. Ship for ship trade is GOOD and the person with the most control of their fleet will end up winning. Eldar kills your ship as they appear - You catch one with taunts and traktors = you kill one of their ships, it's a trade and a fair one at that.

Also tailoring your entire fleet to combat one race is silly and the only race you need to do that for is eldar and even then you will more then likely lose unless the eldar player sucks.

Give more ship slots may or may not be a good idea, People need to understand that they are not game developers or designers and most of their suggestions are garbage, the only thing a gaming company needs to really hear is "THIS IS OVERPOWERED" or "THIS IS UNDERPOWERED" Then they get to work. It is ALOT more complicated then "oh we'll just make the cooldown on pulsars higher and thats that, we'll make em unable to shoot at blips too!" I mention this because the devs gave you a limited amount of ship slots for a REASON! It's not like they were blocked off from giving us more, there is a purpose behind it and it's probably got to do with longetivity (you need to make multiple accounts) which is why you make multiple accounts(admirals) to play separate races aswell. This tactic is not unheard of. Also, your ships and your fleet should feel UNIQUE, it's part of the experience and when you lose a ship it should HURT rather then "oh i got 50 more of them who cares :P" Plus once youve tailored your fleets to fight a specific race, what will you do when half of those ships are dead? either way what you ask for is just a dream which doesnt make sense. Just my two cents.
Last edited by MaxRim on 05 May 2016, 08:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Eldar balance focus

Postby MadDemiurg » 05 May 2016, 08:33

MaxRim wrote:Do NOT listen to solitare, he is a vivid Eldar fan boy and will do ANYTHING in his power to make them as OP as possible!

Chaining all your taunts which have a HUGE cooldown to kill ONE eldar ship is FAIR GAME! Why? Because a good eldar would have instantly killed a chosen ship in your fleet before you even pull off your first taunt or traktor! EVEN WITH THE RANGE NERF IT WILL HAPPEN! If you can't kill a ship you want as soon as you pop your pulsars as eldar YOU ARE PLAYING ELDAR WRONG! You must be missing many pulsars etc. Ship for ship trade is GOOD and the person with the most control of their fleet will end up winning. Eldar kills your ship as they appear - You catch one with taunts and traktors = you kill one of their ships, it's a trade and a fair one at that.


Dude, please go troll some other topics. You have one of your own already. I'm all up for constructive oppinions, but yours are so clearly not. Also, please stop using caps so much, otherwise no one will take you seriously :D.

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Re: Eldar balance focus

Postby MaxRim » 05 May 2016, 08:37

MadDemiurg wrote:
MaxRim wrote:Do NOT listen to solitare, he is a vivid Eldar fan boy and will do ANYTHING in his power to make them as OP as possible!

Chaining all your taunts which have a HUGE cooldown to kill ONE eldar ship is FAIR GAME! Why? Because a good eldar would have instantly killed a chosen ship in your fleet before you even pull off your first taunt or traktor! EVEN WITH THE RANGE NERF IT WILL HAPPEN! If you can't kill a ship you want as soon as you pop your pulsars as eldar YOU ARE PLAYING ELDAR WRONG! You must be missing many pulsars etc. Ship for ship trade is GOOD and the person with the most control of their fleet will end up winning. Eldar kills your ship as they appear - You catch one with taunts and traktors = you kill one of their ships, it's a trade and a fair one at that.


Dude, please go troll some other topics. You have one of your own already. I'm all up for constructive oppinions, but yours are so clearly not. Also, please stop using caps so much, otherwise no one will take you seriously :D.



Sure i wont come back lol, But honestly, you are the one trolling yourself because you act like you know how to fix and make this game so much better but you literally know jack shit and most of your "Constructive opinions" make 0 sense, Thx.


I said a good way to nerf pulsars is lower the range - Devs are lowering the range next patch - Fun fact

I doubt anything you suggest will ever happen because again it makes 0 sense - remove taunt? Up the cooldown on pulsars? Fuck it we'll just make pulsars shoot 360 degrees throw them on a 10 minute cooldown, eldar will come kill your ship every run but they can only make two runs per game and we'll call that balance!

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MadDemiurg
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Re: Eldar balance focus

Postby MadDemiurg » 05 May 2016, 08:43

MaxRim wrote:
MadDemiurg wrote:
MaxRim wrote:Do NOT listen to solitare, he is a vivid Eldar fan boy and will do ANYTHING in his power to make them as OP as possible!

Chaining all your taunts which have a HUGE cooldown to kill ONE eldar ship is FAIR GAME! Why? Because a good eldar would have instantly killed a chosen ship in your fleet before you even pull off your first taunt or traktor! EVEN WITH THE RANGE NERF IT WILL HAPPEN! If you can't kill a ship you want as soon as you pop your pulsars as eldar YOU ARE PLAYING ELDAR WRONG! You must be missing many pulsars etc. Ship for ship trade is GOOD and the person with the most control of their fleet will end up winning. Eldar kills your ship as they appear - You catch one with taunts and traktors = you kill one of their ships, it's a trade and a fair one at that.


Dude, please go troll some other topics. You have one of your own already. I'm all up for constructive oppinions, but yours are so clearly not. Also, please stop using caps so much, otherwise no one will take you seriously :D.



Sure i wont come back lol, But honestly, you are the one trolling yourself because you act like you know how to fix and make this game so much better but you literally know jack shit and most of your "Constructive opinions" make 0 sense, Thx.


Maybe my understanding of the game is not ideal, but I'm not the one going aroung throwing fallacies and overexaggerations like "Eldar can instantly kill 1 ship before the first taunt or traktor". I also don't have problems beating Eldar in MP with other factions, unlike you it seems.

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Re: Eldar balance focus

Postby MaxRim » 05 May 2016, 08:45

Zzzz add me and ill kill your battle ship as soon as you see me, its called an eldar battle ship and atleast 6 escorst = ur ship is dead, clearly u are not playing against good players. Infact there are many ways to do it, 2 battle cruisers + escorts works aswell. I've collected eldar in 40k and elves in fantasy for about 10 fking years, Eldar was the first faction i played in this fking game and i know 100% they are overpowered and that is why they are being nerfed. It's people like solitare that ruin good games like this one over their own personal interests and what they "think is good" for example if it was his way eldar would be immune to reacon probes WTF? /end

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MadDemiurg
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Re: Eldar balance focus

Postby MadDemiurg » 05 May 2016, 08:56

MaxRim wrote:Zzzz add me and ill kill your battle ship as soon as you see me, its called an eldar battle ship and atleast 6 escorst = ur ship is dead, clearly u are not playing against good players. Infact there are many ways to do it, 2 battle cruisers + escorts works aswell. I've collected eldar in 40k and elves in fantasy for about 10 fking years, Eldar was the first faction i played in this fking game and i know 100% they are overpowered and that is why they are being nerfed. It's people like solitare that ruin good games like this one over their own personal interests and what they "think is good" for example if it was his way eldar would be immune to reacon probes WTF? /end


Your TT experience has noting to do with this game as it's not TT. OK Eldar Battle ship + 6 escorts (after pulsar range nerf), let's see: 10 pulsar = 900 raw damage. WIth Brace for impact reduced to 495 damge. Or to 0 with Overcharged void shield. Not enough to kill any ship but escort. Then: chain taunt the battleship to death, blow up escorts with novas as they try to run (even at the edge of the blast they would lose like half health). Eldar are also not getting nerfed, pulsar are (likely) getting nerfed, while starcannons and Eldar survivability is getting buffed.

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Re: Eldar balance focus

Postby Sagranda » 05 May 2016, 09:10

MadDemiurg wrote:-Holofields give +20 troop value at max (scales)
-Ultwe psychic blockade replaced with a new ability


So +40 troop value against LS with the +20 troop value from Biel-Tan?
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