Leave every game eldar is in until devs realise.

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Badgutz
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Re: Leave every game eldar is in until devs realise.

Postby Badgutz » 02 May 2016, 15:53

Tanall wrote:
Spector wrote:
Tanall wrote:For everyone suggesting a damage/range nerf for pulsars, you do realize that will switch the meta to carrier-kiting and escort spam, right?

1. Depends on how they fix pulsars.
2. It will be far less problematic with a 60 second CD and 3 times less dmg with a chance to intercept with turrets and fighters+going silent running or hiding in gas clouds.


Perhaps, but look at it from this perspective: An Eldar that does not want to engage is frustrating, because few can catch him. But with pulsars, they are at least required to make runs on their targets. Carriers dont need to make runs on their targets. So, yes, not as dangerous, but one cant sit there and say that they would enjoy the idea of fighting a kiting Eldar.

We'd basically trade the frustration of glass cannons that epitomize both 'glass' and 'cannon', for the frustration of an enemy staying outside of arm's reach subjecting us to a death of mosquito bites.


I really don't like the sound of that. We already have a carrier kite fleet with chaos. Battles are long and dull with one fleet eroding the other so very slowly. Historically Eldar have always had turbo lances (Pulsars) and in this game if you are a fresh new player you are going to get melted a few times before you get the skills and upgrades to counter them although bracing for impact and taunting whilst going all ahead full might save your greenskin.

I'm playing the multiplayer high end game now and it ain't eldar pulsar ships that bother me its other ork fleets or flamin chaos with the right favors lances batteries and ordinance they are a major pest. But I'm not griefing anyone about it on the forums and yeh before anyone says it the voidstalker is made of paper one mistake and bam it's space junk.
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ScinFaxi
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Re: Leave every game eldar is in until devs realise.

Postby ScinFaxi » 02 May 2016, 20:35

I am entirely a fan of eldar, because their style of game play does require finesse over a point and click. (Arguably point and click, whatever.)
Against a good opponent eldar are much more difficult to play.

An example is, I prefer the play the races of games that have a bit less "standard human play styles"

Sins:Advent
Supcom:Aeon
C&C:Scrin/Nod (GDI being the most human styled faction)

In 40k I play Tau and Eldar

I think the problem is that like Ivanna has said in other posts, Like I also have.

To beat Eldar you have to have a specialised fleet. If you don't know how to beat them, play them a fair bit and see how you lose.

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Ivanna
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Re: Leave every game eldar is in until devs realise.

Postby Ivanna » 02 May 2016, 23:21

ScinFaxi wrote:I am entirely a fan of eldar, because their style of game play does require finesse over a point and click. (Arguably point and click, whatever.)
Against a good opponent eldar are much more difficult to play.

An example is, I prefer the play the races of games that have a bit less "standard human play styles"

Sins:Advent
Supcom:Aeon
C&C:Scrin/Nod (GDI being the most human styled faction)


Kind of interesting to see how playstyles transfer from different games. I was also Advent in Sins, but Cybran in Supcom and Zerg in Starcraft... and my 40k army is Tyranid. Love the hit & run style, but usually with smaller, faster ships and surrounding my enemy as opposed to micromanaging a smaller amount of powerful ones. Probably why I don't really play the Voidstalker. Definitely looking forward to 'Nids when they come, though.

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Re: Leave every game eldar is in until devs realise.

Postby Deidryt » 02 May 2016, 23:43

ScinFaxi wrote:I think the problem is that like Ivanna has said in other posts, Like I also have.

To beat Eldar you have to have a specialised fleet. If you don't know how to beat them, play them a fair bit and see how you lose.

I don't think most of the posts on this forum have been that a "specialized fleet" is needed to face Eldar. Do you need to focus on detection rather than bombs -- sure. But a fleet that is useless against any other race -- no.

What *has* been stated is that if fleets under a single admiral were allowed to be bigger, it would let players tailor entire detachments for each race.

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Re: Leave every game eldar is in until devs realise.

Postby Kadaeux » 03 May 2016, 02:20

Badgutz wrote:I really don't like the sound of that. We already have a carrier kite fleet with chaos.


Then you're going to hate the Tau, and maybe Space Marines when they're implemented (the Marines first)

The Space Marine's *Capital* ships all have launch bays, and the Tau don't just have launch bays on almost all of their Light Cruisers, Cruisers and Battleships, but have powerful bombers and guided ordnance.

When the Tau arrive, unless Tindalos change it from the Canon, Chaos won't be the go-to for Carrier fleets anymore.

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Re: Leave every game eldar is in until devs realise.

Postby Tanall » 03 May 2016, 02:45

Kadaeux wrote:When the Tau arrive, unless Tindalos change it from the Canon, Chaos won't be the go-to for Carrier fleets anymore.


If memory serves, the Tau aren't all that quick. So while Chaos are the carrier-kites, Tau are more about drone firing-lines backed up by railguns.

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Kadaeux
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Re: Leave every game eldar is in until devs realise.

Postby Kadaeux » 03 May 2016, 02:50

Tanall wrote:
Kadaeux wrote:When the Tau arrive, unless Tindalos change it from the Canon, Chaos won't be the go-to for Carrier fleets anymore.


If memory serves, the Tau aren't all that quick. So while Chaos are the carrier-kites, Tau are more about drone firing-lines backed up by railguns.


No they're not very quick. But, if the Tau player has any idea what they're doing, they will HAVE to try and play a kite game for as long as possible, because as soon as they're in brawling range, they can't get out of it, and once the broadside game begins (so to speak) it's one the Tau can't win. While they have brilliant prow firepower, their 'broadsides' are part of it, and very very weak in actual broadside power. (A Custodian Battleship moving abeam to an Emperor at 15cm could literally do nothing to the Emperor except drop it's shields if they were having a gun-duel only.)

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XViper
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Re: Leave every game eldar is in until devs realise.

Postby XViper » 03 May 2016, 05:01

Lets remember at the end of the day, gameplay needs to come before lore.

In lore one Space Marine could happily take on 50 Imperial Guardsmen in hand to hand combat.
We both know for the sake of the Table Top and any video games, this isn't and can't be the case.

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Re: Leave every game eldar is in until devs realise.

Postby Kadaeux » 03 May 2016, 08:50

XViper wrote:Lets remember at the end of the day, gameplay needs to come before lore.

In lore one Space Marine could happily take on 50 Imperial Guardsmen in hand to hand combat.
We both know for the sake of the Table Top and any video games, this isn't and can't be the case.


And that is exactly the wrong attitude to have. The gameplay doesn't need to come before the lore. When it comes to PC, the trick is to have the gameplay MATCH the lore.

Yes, we know that one Marine could bitchslap a large number of Guardsmen. The answer isn't nerfing the marines, but allowing the Guardsman to take more men.

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Re: Leave every game eldar is in until devs realise.

Postby XViper » 03 May 2016, 10:12

There are limits when it comes to 'Lore' and 'Realism'.
Of course match it where you can, but don't sacrifice balance and gameplay to match the lore.

Games like Dawn of War simply would not have been able to function if they attempted to match the 'lore' when it came to troop numbers. (Orks & Tyranids)
Bolters would 'one-shot' most units.
Most basic weaponry would do 0 damage to a Space Marine.
You would also literally be unable to 'recruit' a Space Marine, due to the lengthy creation and implant process.

I could go into an endless rant, either about the Warhammer universe or any other number of games (Superhero/villain games come to mind. Mortal Kombat too.)

My point stories/books/novels/LORE is created and written to amaze and enthral. We want to read or watch movies about super warriors and demi-gods. However in the scope of a GAME (especially a multiplayer one), you cannot always keep true to these for the sake of fun and fair play.

I feel you got a too little defensive, and I certainly don't mean to imply that we should just throw lore out the window.
But when people start going "Well Ship X has armor so thick that Ship Y wouldn't be able to scratch it", well then you start to run into issues. Some games cater for this (Company of Heroes), in their design from the offset, and this leads to very heavy counter-play, however from what I can tell Battlefleet Gothic has not followed this design principle from the onset, and is likely not in a position to cater for such lore-accuracy.


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