Some Eldar Thoughts

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Carl
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Re: Some Eldar Thoughts

Postby Carl » 20 April 2016, 14:03

I only tend to play Solo Skirmish, but from what I've seen the main issue with Eldar is that their 'supposed' fragility is non-existent. Yes they die incredibly fast if they have their generator knocked out (although they can mitigate the chance of this happening with the Ulthwe favour) or if they are sitting completely still, but otherwise their effective health has to be on par or greater than the effective health of other factions. The Pulsars are certainly also an issue.

I really like your idea regarding the Holo-Fields, as when I play Eldar I want to feel like a real corsair: having to use careful manoeuvres and hit and run tactics to deal damage rather than just swarming around them like so many wasps ruining the picnic. Holo-fields should provide a reasonable defense when moving at high speed, but Eldar shouldn't be able to withstand sustained fire. As it stands at the moment Holo-Fields seem like a straight upgrade to the regular Void Shields other factions use.

Further, and I don't know if this is possible within the engine, Holo-Fields should be dependant on the actual speed of the vessel and not whether it has a move order or not. Currently an Eldar vessel that is actually moving slowly can still benefit from the full effect of the Holo-Fields if it's turning tightly, and from what I can tell they aren't effected by Stasis Bombs at all (I might be wrong on this). This is silly, as it shuts down some of the more elegant tactics one could use against the Eldar.

As for Pulsars? Personally I'd rather they just behave like Lances as standard but have an ability packaged with them that behaves like the current Pulsars, albeit with reduced damage and which disables the Pulsar for the duration of the cool-down. This would remove some of the micro-intensive nature of the Eldar and make them more compatible with the torpedoes while also allowing for more skilled players to take full advantage of their strength.


I kind of covered this in and edit a couple of posts up. But i dislike holo-fields being affected by speed very much, (and it is speed, you make a tight turn they start dropping, stasis bombs, yeah that is a point), because if they drop significantly our dead. You'll never get moving again unless your opponent screwed up before focus fire kills or at least damages to the point of needed to retreat the ship.

The whole problem with Eldar is this extreme's issue. They should take consistant damage more of the time than they do yes. But you shouldn't have the ability to just obliterate an eldar ship in 30 seconds or less the way you can now if everything goes your way. And there's so many things outside your control, (or a least very difficult to control effectively), that can bring a ship to a halt. Mos of mine happen when bomb drops, torpedoes, and ram attempt combine to leave two of my ships in each others way after al the dodging. Whilst thats good play on the opponent's part and should net them more damage, (and let's be fair with weaker holo-fields that will net the enemy more damage because you spend that much more time i range), it shouldn;t be an auto-death sentence for the Eldar ship either. It wouldn't be if it was them on the receiving end.

And thats where the Pulsar balance issue come sin. it's the same issue approached from the opposite direction. If the other player cannot perfectly whack the Eldar they'll proceed to demolish him with way too much focused apha capabilities.

Like i said "Eldar are a faction of too many extremes".

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Gerver
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Re: Some Eldar Thoughts

Postby Gerver » 20 April 2016, 14:31

And again I disagree with words about taunt strenght vs eldars, there is so many ways to counter taunt and using them good eldar can ignore triple chaintaunt.

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Kine²
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Re: Some Eldar Thoughts

Postby Kine² » 20 April 2016, 15:06

Carl wrote:Like i said "Eldar are a faction of too many extremes".


Is this necessarily a bad thing ? Or a nuance specific to a unique faction ...


cmdchicken wrote:...are you saying you made a huge balance thread based on AI skirmishes?


In this case it isn't a deal breaker since the issues covered doesn't deal with MP meta. They are for the most part fundamental observations on how Eldar functions as a faction and are not wrong apart from the micro overhead topic.


Carl wrote:
Awesome run down. Especially your proposed fixes for a number of items, validates quite a few opinions.

Only one minor disagreement with regards to micro difficulty both in Pulsar usage and sustaining Holofields. I strongly believe Devs share your views on these matters back when they were internally testing but I gotta say (and I'm not the only one on this) is Devs grossly over-estimated the difficulty.

It ain't all that hard to micro these things. Unfortunately some things were balanced with the assumption that they were. Anyways, would love to see this updated if or when Eldars gets patched.


Er. Yes yes it is hard to micro them. I get the feeling you haven't even considered what a player can do. Or maybe MP players are being really dumb about this.


I'm not trying to call you out or put you in a bad spot but is it possible to provide a video of you playing Eldar (AI or MP doesn't matter) ? Helps trying to gauge the accuracy of your observation when seeing things from your pov.

---

As an aside though, from your description .. sounds alot like you're not skirting boundaries with Eldar but instead skirmishing opponents closely which isn't the way. Eldars do not go close to enemy ships. Ever. And if this is done religiously, taunts, rams etc isn't a factor. You get plinked by deployables now and again but that is part of the game where opponents try to disrupt your approach and to be fair, its about the only thing they -can- do while waiting for you to burst them down again. And it isn't special treatment exclusive to Eldars. All factions do this to all other factions :P
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Pleb Squasher
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Re: Some Eldar Thoughts

Postby Pleb Squasher » 20 April 2016, 15:13

Carl wrote:I want to give a first set of impressions and detailed thoughts on Eldar. I've separated it out from the main impressions thread because i'm planning somthing similar to my Ork thread where i cover a lot of stuff in detail. As a result i expect this to run rather long.

NOTE: DPS sheet updates are next on my list of things to do now i've got to 8 with an Eldar Admiral :).

Weaponry:

Pulsars: Ok as an activated ability these aren't technically awful. They do what they're supposed to do, in theory. And thats the problem in theory. In reality the tightly restrictive arcs and what that does to your approach, (and subsequent escape options, particularly if you don't want your ships to get in each others way), makes for a lot of issues. Conversely when they do hit i have serious concerns about their balance. And i'm not just talking their current 50% over-burst. The deal way more DPS than comparative cannon batteries ATM, and i'd argue out-perform torpedoes and probably bombers too.The fact that they require different approach angles to torpedoes only complicates matters on the Light Cruisers.

TLDR: Much too good right now.

Shuriken Cannon: First from the way shots home i'm pretty sure some kind of translation error on GW's end for the french 40k and BFG rules is to blame for the name. If a Dev can elaborate a little on name sourcing i suspect us fans can clear things up very quickly. As a weapon. These are the worst of the Eldar weapons by far. Their DPS relative to Pulsars is not great even if we discount the 50% over burst ATM. Whilst the Cannon have twice the raw DPS, typical enemy armour values guarantee that it's never going to do more equal Pulsar's at 100% hit rates, but given Eldar playstyle Orks and Imperials will be pointing that prow at people a lot, ergo they're actually going to be down around a quarter of the average damage vs them.

TLDR: Very bad because they're a sustained weapon and Pulsars are too good.

Eldar Launch Bays: Quite nice powerful weapons systems overall on a per squadron level, but again even if we ignore the 50% over burst where looking at Lances way out-performing these. Then again they are a lot longer ranged. I'm not calling foul on these yet as i need more in game experiance with them. But i'm also not impressed with them next to Pulsars. Eldar are much more able to dart in and out so the range feels like less of an edge.

TLDR: Nice but hampered by the Eldar's ease of closing distance so range is less relevant and DPS is poor.

Eldar Torpedoes: What can i say more Torpedoes. Don't get me wrong because they get shot down waaaay less than anyone elses they're a lot more effective vs the AI. But thats AI, in the real world a human is going to have zero issues with these. Their torpedoes, they will be avoided, and they will be mostly usless as a result.

TLDR: SLightly better torpedoes but still all the weakness thereof.

Holo-Fields: Not actually a weapon but i need to address these pronto. SImply put disgustingly overpowered vs things they protect against and in need of a serious overhaul otherwise. Right now with these an Eldar cruiser has around 4000 effective health without upgrade and 8000 with. That compares to, (assuming 1 shield regen), 2000 for Imperials/Chaos vs 50 armour. 2200 if you want to throw in 2 shield regens. Thats way out of line IMO. Waaaay, waaaay, waaaaaaaaay out of line. At the same time they have some critical flaws. Because of their weapons arcs and reliance on Pulsar's and Torpedoes ATM and their hit and run nature an Eldar player allready has waaay more to handle than is reasonable IMO from a Micro PoV, (yes even with Pulsar auto-cast). And then they've got to hand mess with their ships in excruciating detail to keep them moving, keep them out of the enemies way and be avoiding torpedoes and ram attempts, (the latter 3 being hugely complicated by the way Eldar Weaponry works). They're also way too vulnerable to criticals and the fact they effectively cease working on warp jumps makes retreating vs other eldar impossible. And not easy vs everyone else.

TLDR: OP when working, crits are too OP vs them, and a huge excess micro contributor and retreat killer.


Eldar Ships:

Unlike for Orks i'm going to do some talk of specific ships

Aurora: This thing is just so overpowered. Honestly fixed, (as in bring the alpha punch down to 20 instead of 30)), pulsars on the escorts, the Eclipse, and the Void Stalker are probably going to be closer to ok than not. But 2 of them on this thing. No just hell no. The torpedoes however situational they are, are just icing on the cake IMO.

Solaris: This is probably closer to balanced it's batteries are damned near usless but the launch bay whilst situational works well at what it's supposed to do when used in the right circumstances.

Shadow: Oh dear, the red headed stepchild of the Eldar. Suffers awfully from the batteries being terrible and torpedoes being both situational and in this case no better than the light cruisers in numbers per launch.

Eclipse: I'm kind of annoyed about this ship. Creating an Eldar BC? Sure, and they could have done what they've done and then put an actual TT acurratte eclipse in the cruiser range IMO. That said whilst again the batteries are worthless it combines a good Pulsar punch with a good Launch bay, if only a single so it's a decent design given current state of the Eldar.

Void Stalker: As usual the weapons battery is completely forgettable. The 4 Pulsars give it awesome alpha but it's real scary part lays in the quad launch bays. That combined with the pulsars is a very nasty one two punch. Too nasty if the batteries are made to be worth a damn.


There's only really two abilities i want to discuss.

1. Darkstar Fighters: This honestly is much too mandatory atm. With how vulnerable Eldar are to ordnance they need this badly.

2. Taunt: Right now this is much too powerful vs Eldar. Given how they work this will result in an Eldar ship coming to a complete stop in the midst of an enemy fleet. WHich is just instant death. Aside from generator crits this is the biggest source of deaths as Eldar for me.


TLDR Overall: Simply put Eldar have a bunch of problem weapons problem ships and holo-fields are the source of a lot of awkwardness and this combined with other stuff makes the eldar both unfun to play, but also creates a lot of issues for the Eldar player that aren't needed IMO. Eldar are currently a race of extremes to far too great a degree IMO.



Suggestions:

Pulsars: These need to come down to no more than 15 damage a pulse IMO. That brings their DPS down from the current 4.5DPS to 2.25DPS which is much more reasonable IMO. At the same time the Micro overhead and the way they force you onto predictable highly vulnerable courses needs addressing. These need to be able to target and track within a 45 degree arc so you don't have to go exactly bow on to the target. It makes lining up multiple ships much easier and makes the enemies job of countering them as less trivial. Right now they're so powerful the latter point barely matter but get them down to a reasonable punch and you're going to see this exploited horrifically.

Shuriken Cannon: There are two options for these IMO.

Option A) Make them like Pulsars. I.e. an ability that can target and tracks any targets within a 45 degree frontal arc firing a short burst of very damaging cannon fire. This has a lot of issues due to targeting matrix range extension, AP ammo, e.t.c. You've got a system that because of these is going to go very micro heavy to get the best possibble salvo out. IMO you'd have to change Eldar to a single fixed flat accuracy at any range with targeting matrix and AP ammo replaced. And it would deny the Eldar somthing i think they do need atm. A decent sustained fire weapon.

Option B) Take advantage of their guided nature and open the arc up to 270 degrees. They can allready achieve tracking shots like this in very close range extreme angle passes, by the time the shots start turning out the barrel the target is allready alongside. So visually it would work MO, and it would open a lot easier use out of these weapons IMO without adding extra micro and keeping the Eldar with a sustained damage weapon for finishing off cripples and lastly not messing up targeting matrix or AP ammo.

I prefer B myself for all the reasons stated not to mention how simple it is.

Launch Bays: Fix Pulsar Alpha and these will be fine IMO.

Torpedoes: don't actually feel there's any need to change these and taking some of the work out of lining up other weaponry would make these far easier to use anyway IMO.

Holo-Fields: These need their block chance brought down a fair way. 65% base. 75% with upgrade IMO. At the same time take away the whole moving affects save bit. You don't need this to reinforce Eldar going hit and Run. If the save rate is low enough and the weaponry is bursty enough, (and the latter's allready true enough), there's no great need for it to also reinforce it via needing to keep moving to keep it working and removing it removes a lot of silliness vis a vis ships getting in each others way whilst trying to dodge 50 diffrent things. It lets the Eldar player focus on making hit and run attacks and avoiding other things instead of constantly fretting about how he's going to move his ships away and that takes a lot of the micro overhead out of things IMO. At the same time make the save effect everything bar mines and rams. A lower save that isn't specifically weak to very specific things is far better because it prevents Eldar as a race just invalidating entire builds. Specific fleet builds doing so. Sure. Entire races just by existing? No just hell no. It also means Taunt and any similar strats, (like boxing a ship in, it can be done btw), are no longer auto-wins. Again Holo-fields are a huge cause of Eldar's extreme nature of being auto-win or auto-lose depending on various specifics. Generator crits need a look at, and i think how Eldar engines have been handled is the right baseline. But everyone needs this stuff, not just Eldar IMO.

Aurora: You've got to strip a lance off this. Then it will be Balanced IMO.

Solaris: Fix Batteries and this will be fine if you strip a lance off the other one.

Shadow: Again fix batteries and we've got a good ship.

Eclipse: See Shadow comments, the battery DPS might need an eye keeping on it but thats about it.

Void Stalker: Fix Batteries and you're going to have to strip this down to 2 bays IMO. But again otherwise do everything else i suggested and this will be just fine IMO.


Darkstar Fighters: make Holo-fields affect assault boats and bombers and torpedoes and you can just dump this IMO. Problem solved.

Taunt: If holo-fields don't care about movement speed this goes from most OP strat ever to well balanced IMO.



A bit rushed near the end there. But thats my thoughts and suggestions.


Like your post. I agree that Shruiken (probs spelt it wrong but I hate the poncy space elves anyway) cannons are greatly under powered. If you look at the damage, they are often equivalent of imperial macro batteries when you add up all the guns on single ships, based off 12 second damage calcs.
The biggest issue is that they require you to be firing for a long period of time to do real damage. Eldar are supposed to rely on alpha damage, so I say reroll these weapons to be more like IN macro battery, in that they fire slowly but fire in volleys for high immediate damage.

Pulsars need nerfs, straight up. My opinion is that because Eldar already have torps, Pulsars should be auto fire weapons like lances (not going to happen) however with much higher damage. Pulsars should keep their current 'arc' of fire though as auto fire means they will hit as soon as they pass over hostiles, thus eliminating some of the micro required for Eldar. You already have to micro torps, plus extra micro for fragile Eldar hulls so Pulsars just make the work load ridiculous.
Pulsars also need to smashed with the nerf bat, they simply do tremendous damage. If you want to give a faction damage like that, they need to completely lose the holo fields! It's just not healthy for gameplay that you can fly in and insta gib an enemy ship with your fleet and the enemy can do absolutely nothing.

Eldar favours need work, particularly the boarding/troop strength focused favour which is currently op.

Taunt is not actually that strong vs Eldar, in fact I'd say it's more effective against slow races who can't reposition as fast following a taunt. Eldar players can very easily MWJ out of taunts, and also the holo field is down for far less time then you'd imagine. Even all this combined, and Eldar ships still don't suffer enough at the guns of the enemy when taunted, if you ask me.

I want a total Eldar rework, my opinion is that they are a poorly designed and rushed faction that rely on gimmicks more than actual tactics. They are actually quite clunky at the moment, it would be nice to have them streamlined and also balanced out.

A giant, fixed laser beam that requires you wobble your ship into position does not seem very Eldar to me :P

Carl
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Re: Some Eldar Thoughts

Postby Carl » 20 April 2016, 15:32

I'm not trying to call you out or put you in a bad spot but is it possible to provide a video of you playing Eldar (AI or MP doesn't matter) ? Helps trying to gauge the accuracy of your observation when seeing things from your pov.

---

As an aside though, from your description .. sounds alot like you're not skirting boundaries with Eldar but instead skirmishing opponents closely which isn't the way. Eldars do not go close to enemy ships. Ever. And if this is done religiously, taunts, rams etc isn't a factor. You get plinked by deployables now and again but that is part of the game where opponents try to disrupt your approach and to be fair, its about the only thing they -can- do while waiting for you to burst them down again. And it isn't special treatment exclusive to Eldars. All factions do this to all other factions


I'd love to do a short video but shadowplay i still non-functional with BFG last i looked so i've no way to record :(.

And no i'm not trying to get close. But you have to ho0ld on course for a good 5-8 seconds to get a good pulsar run in. In that time without extended range they can hit you with torps or a ram attempt. Even with it all they have to do is throw you off somehow so your turning away while they close the range and they make up the difference.

Don't get me wrong. It's the AI. I'm flattening them overall. But i'm noticing very much how hard i'm having to work to do so in comparison to other factions.

If i'm allowed a perfect run with no interference i'd say i break away 3k inside the maximum range of the pulsars. If they disrupt the range it's more like 5-6k. Which means even with 9k Pulsars i'm sitting within 3k by the time i break off. Then again what range you break isn't really the issue. It's what all that dodging to get that run that leaves you there does to your positioning, micro load, and breakaway options.

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Kine²
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Re: Some Eldar Thoughts

Postby Kine² » 20 April 2016, 15:59

I'm recording with Shadowplay.
You gotta change BFG:A to borderless fullscreen in game options.
or turn on desktop capture in GeForce Experience > Preferences > Shadowplay
- tick the box 'Allow desktop capture'
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HERO
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Re: Some Eldar Thoughts

Postby HERO » 20 April 2016, 16:22

Some thoughts..

> I don't normally bite on threads that try to dictate MP balance using examples from AI Skirmish, but I'll entertain this one because it's a numbers analysis more than anything else.
> I posted in another thread that the current "Shurikens" do not fit well with the Eldar playstyle. On the Shadow for example, I suggested the damage go from 3 --> 6, and reload go from 2 --> 4, with 2x the crit to compensate. The DPS will remain at 12, but it will give the cannons more bite, and more fitting with how the Eldar are supposed to function. The same formula should apply to every single ship armed with SCs.
> I believe that the Kinetic Shrouds should have their damage negation split. 60% vs. Macros while keeping 80% vs lances and novas. Or just have them work like regular Holo-fields, which is something I suggested over a month ago, but this is what we have to play with currently.
> Pulsars, I've literally made a billion threads about this, so I'll hold off on explaining it. I just think that 24 (8x3) / 8 sec reload regular lance weapon would make for much better gameplay.

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Re: Some Eldar Thoughts

Postby aetaosraukeres » 20 April 2016, 16:26

HERO wrote:> Pulsars, I've literally made a billion threads about this, so I'll hold off on explaining it. I just think that 24 (8x3) / 8 sec reload regular lance weapon would make for much better gameplay.


I think a longer casting time would be much better. The pulsar will do the same damage but it takes much more time to deliver.
Frontal attacks would end in a ram before the puslar is finished. As eldar you have to manoeuvre your ships to attack from the side or rear to get the best out of the Pulsar

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MadDemiurg
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Re: Some Eldar Thoughts

Postby MadDemiurg » 20 April 2016, 16:27

Not sure your dps calculations are correct. Pulsar is 3*30 = 90 damage every 30 seconds. So 3 raw dps, not 4.5. Or 2.25 if you factor in armour. 4.5 is the total actual aurora dps.

Also do not agree about Aurora being too good.

It's the cheapest way to get pulsar for eldar, but it not that much cheaper in terms of pulsar per point than other pulsar ships. It's also the most fragile cruiser with 2 skillshots. With 1 pulsar it would not be competitive. Maybe bumping up its cost a bit would be justified, like to 120 or 125 points, but definitely not removing half of its firepower (especially if pulsar are toned down).
Last edited by MadDemiurg on 20 April 2016, 16:31, edited 2 times in total.

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HERO
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Re: Some Eldar Thoughts

Postby HERO » 20 April 2016, 16:29

aetaosraukeres wrote:
HERO wrote:> Pulsars, I've literally made a billion threads about this, so I'll hold off on explaining it. I just think that 24 (8x3) / 8 sec reload regular lance weapon would make for much better gameplay.


I think a longer casting time would be much better. The pulsar will do the same damage but it takes much more time to deliver.
Frontal attacks would end in a ram before the puslar is finished. As eldar you have to manoeuvre your ships to attack from the side or rear to get the best out of the Pulsar


So you want the current Hit and Wait faction to Hit and Wait Longer? Sounds awful.


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