Immediate removal of Eldar as a PVP faction

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oldman
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Re: Immediate removal of Eldar as a PVP faction

Postby oldman » 24 June 2016, 16:00

Sagranda wrote:
oldman wrote:
Sagranda wrote:
Or you know, they just don't like the design of Pulsars and the gameplay they lead to.
It is unfun for them.
Nothing to do with "real men" and "brawling" and other stuff.
If Pulsars were normal lances and we would have an actual hit and run style, then more people would play them. Of that I am sure.



Funny, since the patch Eldar is the race I fear the LEAST in PVP. Of course a very very good eldar player can be very devastating. But the average player, while using eldar is a piece of cake to murder.

The only place where they are really borken is if they are the target of assassination, since they can keep away long enough to bug out.


I fail to see what that has to do with my post :?:

But to what you are saying:
I only feared a good Eldar with my close range brawler Ork fleet back in the day, since it was a pain in the ass to catch them.
With everyone else I never had a problem.
After the Zzap upgrades, well, who wants some roasted shiny helmets?


If pulsars were normal lances then almost no one would play them instead of chaos because at first look they would seem to be the same. Pulsars are exaclty the opposite of what you say, they are INTERESTIGN because they are different, but they are very hard to balance. Right now.. eldar are not strong so I have no idea why anyoen not playign eldar is complaining about pulsars.

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Sagranda
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Re: Immediate removal of Eldar as a PVP faction

Postby Sagranda » 24 June 2016, 16:37

oldman wrote:
Sagranda wrote:
oldman wrote:

Funny, since the patch Eldar is the race I fear the LEAST in PVP. Of course a very very good eldar player can be very devastating. But the average player, while using eldar is a piece of cake to murder.

The only place where they are really borken is if they are the target of assassination, since they can keep away long enough to bug out.


I fail to see what that has to do with my post :?:

But to what you are saying:
I only feared a good Eldar with my close range brawler Ork fleet back in the day, since it was a pain in the ass to catch them.
With everyone else I never had a problem.
After the Zzap upgrades, well, who wants some roasted shiny helmets?


If pulsars were normal lances then almost no one would play them instead of chaos because at first look they would seem to be the same. Pulsars are exaclty the opposite of what you say, they are INTERESTIGN because they are different, but they are very hard to balance. Right now.. eldar are not strong so I have no idea why anyoen not playign eldar is complaining about pulsars.


You are actually in the minority with this opinion, or well, maybe you were and now you are the majority, hard to tell since such a huge amount of players left.
But back when this game still had a decent playerbase and more people in the forum, almost no one liked the Pulsar design, because for the majority it was a boring gameplay and "quite a few" left because of that.
To me it is still so and no amount of games and time has changed that opinion.


And those who would think that Eldar and Chaos are the same with those changes, even at first glance, should get some glasses or new one, since even at first glance it is rather obvious that they are way different.


But again, what you quoted has nothing to do with what you said.
I play Orkz to collect all those salty Imperial tears
#FeelsWaaaghBoss

artisticMink
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Re: Immediate removal of Eldar as a PVP faction

Postby artisticMink » 24 June 2016, 22:13

Turning pulsars into lances would take uniqueness from the faction and move them closer towards chaos. I can see that.

Some adjustments that could drastically improve the situation would be:

    * Pulsar damage has fallof, causing only 40% damage at maximum range.
    * Vault cooldown increased by 6 seconds.
    * Solar Sail cooldown increased by 2 seconds.

It makes it slightly more difflicult to stay at optimal range all the time. Pulsar damage is less rewarding in considerably safe distance while still allowing to go in for the kill with a high-risk high-reward action.

Mav
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Re: Immediate removal of Eldar as a PVP faction

Postby Mav » 24 June 2016, 22:32

artisticMink wrote:
    * Pulsar damage has fallof, causing only 40% damage at maximum range.
    * Vault cooldown increased by 6 seconds.
    * Solar Sail cooldown increased by 2 seconds.


And you've just killed the faction. Point is it's really hard to nerf pulsars more than now since the way pulsars are now they have the minimum max range. I.E Imagine a VS right now does 20 or 30? per shot? Let's go with 30 x 4 x 3 x 50% (shield upgade)x 25% (saim) and it deals 675 dmg? (that is to shields) Now we reduce it by 60%. We're finished with 200. That is way less the shield chaos, imps and SM have on BS. Now let's generously assume he doesn't use any weird upgrade to that and after we deal our dmg we vaul off
Assuming he will start chasing me instantly my next striking chance will be in 35 seconds? I think (new vaul cd) By that time his shields will pretty much regen.
Tl;dr
Nerfed pulsars don't bring nuff alpha to kill stuff, coming closer kills the Eldar

artisticMink
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Re: Immediate removal of Eldar as a PVP faction

Postby artisticMink » 25 June 2016, 08:48

Mav wrote:And you've just killed the faction. Point is it's really hard to nerf pulsars more than now since the way pulsars are now they have the minimum max range. I.E Imagine a VS right now does 20 or 30? per shot? Let's go with 30 x 4 x 3 x 50% (shield upgade)x 25% (saim) and it deals 675 dmg? (that is to shields) Now we reduce it by 60%. We're finished with 200. That is way less the shield chaos, imps and SM have on BS. Now let's generously assume he doesn't use any weird upgrade to that and after we deal our dmg we vaul off
Assuming he will start chasing me instantly my next striking chance will be in 35 seconds? I think (new vaul cd) By that time his shields will pretty much regen.
Tl;dr
Nerfed pulsars don't bring nuff alpha to kill stuff, coming closer kills the Eldar


Well, why do you believe that Eldar should be able to alpha someone away?

200 damage is quite a lot - every 20 seconds. Plus the potential damage from launch bays. Plus Saim-Hamm and the generous crit bonuses of Warlock and Multi Vector Crystal Focusing. I mean, again: 200 damage every 20 seconds - in a worst case scenario - is still amazing. Every other faction would kill for that. ( Currently a triple pulsar crit can do more then 1k damage btw. Which is insane.)

I feel that most eldar players have a difflicult time realizing how much damage Pulsars actually do compared to other races.

Mav
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Re: Immediate removal of Eldar as a PVP faction

Postby Mav » 25 June 2016, 16:11

artisticMink wrote:Well, why do you believe that Eldar should be able to alpha someone away?


I don't but that's how they were designed and that's what makes them diffrent from other factions and I'd like to keep that

artisticMink wrote:200 damage is quite a lot - every 20 seconds. Plus the potential damage from launch bays. Plus Saim-Hamm and the generous crit bonuses of Warlock and Multi Vector Crystal Focusing. I mean, again: 200 damage every 20 seconds - in a worst case scenario - is still amazing. Every other faction would kill for that. ( Currently a triple pulsar crit can do more then 1k damage btw. Which is insane.)

I feel that most eldar players have a difflicult time realizing how much damage Pulsars actually do compared to other races.

I've already added bonus from saim and I assumed we're going with stealth order in order for saim to work so it's 200 +- lucky crits.
Actually you don't shoot at 20 second intervals. You shoot when you're safe to do so AFTER 20 seconds as in you won't turn on the ship that is AAF towards you
Orcs can have even higher alpha btw. I saw barrages from SM battlebarges that also melted ships. High alpha is not unique to Eldars. It's just easiest to pull off on Eldars

Noocar
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Re: Immediate removal of Eldar as a PVP faction

Postby Noocar » 25 June 2016, 17:31

Mav wrote:
artisticMink wrote:Well, why do you believe that Eldar should be able to alpha someone away?


I don't but that's how they were designed and that's what makes them diffrent from other factions and I'd like to keep that


I have the feeling people forget about the "fragile" trait, the low armor and the lack of shields. That is why Eldars are intended to alpha people. As far as I understand how they are designed they are a risk/reward faction.

Mav wrote:
artisticMink wrote:200 damage is quite a lot - every 20 seconds. Plus the potential damage from launch bays. Plus Saim-Hamm and the generous crit bonuses of Warlock and Multi Vector Crystal Focusing. I mean, again: 200 damage every 20 seconds - in a worst case scenario - is still amazing. Every other faction would kill for that. ( Currently a triple pulsar crit can do more then 1k damage btw. Which is insane.)

I feel that most eldar players have a difflicult time realizing how much damage Pulsars actually do compared to other races.

I've already added bonus from saim and I assumed we're going with stealth order in order for saim to work so it's 200 +- lucky crits.
Actually you don't shoot at 20 second intervals. You shoot when you're safe to do so AFTER 20 seconds as in you won't turn on the ship that is AAF towards you
Orcs can have even higher alpha btw. I saw barrages from SM battlebarges that also melted ships. High alpha is not unique to Eldars. It's just easiest to pull off on Eldars


I do not really see how other faction deal less damages compared to the eldar. It is a thing to deal 200 damage in one attack but I have never seen anyone talking about the amount of damages dealt in dogfights scenarios between let's say IN and Chaos. I'd like those numbers.

As Mav wrote, you cannot be attacking everytime your abilities are ready and a lot of things are to be taken into consideration: special orders (which I feel way more complicated with Eldar (and I think something is to be done in here)), cooldowns of the several abilities you built, the map itlself can makes it impossible to attack, are you being chased by escorts etc...

As a faction that needs to gamble when attacking, the Eldars are, in my opinion, in the good way to be balanced. Prior to the patch, they had nothing to fear. As an Eldar player I have the feeling they are much harder to play and, all in all, that's a good thing. However, even if the changes went in the good direction, it requires more tweaking. Again I feel pretty desesperate to witness complete destruction of my vessels just because I didn't click a button fast enough. When playing against Eldar the errors your opponent makes are his doom faster than with any other race.

Mav
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Re: Immediate removal of Eldar as a PVP faction

Postby Mav » 25 June 2016, 20:00

artisticMink wrote:200 damage is quite a lot - every 20 seconds. Plus the potential damage from launch bays. Plus Saim-Hamm and the generous crit bonuses of Warlock and Multi Vector Crystal Focusing. I mean, again: 200 damage every 20 seconds - in a worst case scenario - is still amazing. Every other faction would kill for that. ( Currently a triple pulsar crit can do more then 1k damage btw. Which is insane.)


No, they can't. VS even with saim and 36% crit chance doesn't do that. If a VS and 2 eclipses ganged up on 1 ship than maybe
Actually I've just bothered to look at how much dmg a pulsar does each shot.
It's 15. 15 whooping dmg. God I'm dumb.
so for a VS it's 15x4x3x25% saim x50% vs shields with 26% crit chance ( gunner crew) equals 420 or so. There were numbers after the coma but fuck'em
And that actually feels like the ammount I actually do

Noocar wrote:I do not really see how other faction deal less damages compared to the eldar. It is a thing to deal 200 damage in one attack but I have never seen anyone talking about the amount of damages dealt in dogfights scenarios between let's say IN and Chaos. I'd like those numbers.


Orcs before the zzap change did way more. When I played my orc BS I'd jump into enemy, shield up, taunt, traktor, lock on fire all prom guns on 1 ship, and ram it with BRB. I could just obliterate shit. But that was considered fair coz it wasn't the gay space elves.
SM Battlebarges with bombardment can do that now. From what I've seen a locked on salvo looks glorious and you still have torpedoes.
I think imps and chaos are more about sustained dmg, unless you count nova cannons

Draxynnic
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Re: Immediate removal of Eldar as a PVP faction

Postby Draxynnic » 26 June 2016, 00:55

oldman wrote:If pulsars were normal lances then almost no one would play them instead of chaos because at first look they would seem to be the same. Pulsars are exaclty the opposite of what you say, they are INTERESTIGN because they are different, but they are very hard to balance. Right now.. eldar are not strong so I have no idea why anyoen not playign eldar is complaining about pulsars.
By that logic, Orks, IN, and SMs are all the same. After all, all three are slower than other factions (not sure about SMs, haven't played with them enough), heavily armoured (particularly on the prow, allowing for rammings), and have a focus on close-range bombardment and boarding tactics, with torpedoes and launchbays in a supplemental role.

They all go about this in different ways, but hey, details.

Chaos and Eldar both share a focus in speed, lance-type weapons, and launchbays (particularly now that Eclipses have two and there's a Shadow variant that can carry them). However, the way they play is at least as different as the three above, and would remain so with normalised pulsars.

The problem with pulsars at the moment is due to how sensitive they are to player skill, particularly given how micro-intensive Eldar can be even without having to fiddle with pulsars, which makes them impossible to balance across different skill levels.

Consider Alice. Alice is an expert player who can micro at the level of a professional Starcraft player and has a natural feel for recharges. She has her ships well optimised for her tactics, has the experience to know how ships behave in the game, and can pretty much pull off perfect pulsar runs every time she has the appropriate cooldowns ready, without compromising her command of the rest of her fleet.

Now, consider Bob. Bob is... not so experienced. Bob can get overwhelmed when attempting to micro multiple ships, so that one ship ends up in trouble while Bob is focusing on another. He doesn't have Alice's experience with ship control, so his pulsar runs only get one hit in or miss entirely half the time. He doesn't keep careful track of his recharges, so his pulsars and other cooldown abilities often simply go unused for extended periods.

Now, who do you balance pulsars for? If you balance them for Alice, the game will be balanced at the top end, but attempting to play Eldar for anyone who doesn't have that extreme level of skill will be a painful experience. If you balance them for Bob, then Eldar will be playable at the average level, but Alice and elite Eldar players at her level will pulsar everything in sight and Eldar will dominate the top bracket. If you balance them somewhere in between, you'll have both problems at reduced intensity.

Normalising pulsars would remove this sensitivity to player skill, and thereby remove the Alice and Bob problem. With pulsars as they currently are, there will always be some level of play where Eldar are too weak or too strong.

Taurusbully
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Re: Immediate removal of Eldar as a PVP faction

Postby Taurusbully » 29 June 2016, 13:32

I play all factions , have lvl 8 admirals on all but Chaos.

The amount of APM to play Eldar is by far the highest.

You cant just move all ur ships together like other factions, you have to split them individually and atack from multiple directions, making sure your ships stay in line for a perfect pulsar. Oh, lets no forget they removed the upgraded that increased speed as long as not focusing fire.

I would agree it was a bit imba with the pulsars range upgrade, but on that patch other factions had taunt. Now with the current range of pulsar , and even with the buff to starcannons, you have to risk TO MUCH with eldars. They need to get close, and this is where their fragile attribute shines. You will get constantly on fire, and your repair ability will not be enough for it.


I think Eldar are fine now, if anything they deserve a boost to their troop value.


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