Immediate removal of Eldar as a PVP faction

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Scorch715
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Re: Immediate removal of Eldar as a PVP faction

Postby Scorch715 » 20 June 2016, 11:56

BrianDavion wrote:on that I agree, the nova canon is supposed to be the IN's heavy artillery weapon. it should hit for pretty impressive damage. sadly people even AFTER it got nerfed kept screaming OP because they used tactics that made them vunerable to it. if you tightly pack huge groups of escorts together you deserve what you get


Sadly you can't balance something by just making it crap at what its meant to be for, you instead need to give it a weakness in the same scale as its advantage. In the Nova Cannons case, only being forward firing, usable at 6k+, and pretty inaccurate is perfectly fine as a balance considering the Dominator is far more effective in a 3k broadsiding battle. The Mars is potentially harder to argue for because it's more of a longer-range support ship, but its not like the Nova Cannon is a delete button for anything other than escorts, which is exactly what its meant to, so once again theres no problem.

Things like Pulsars and Taunt on the other hand are a lot harder to balance, which is why Taunt had to go (and hopefully AP ammo with it, I'd quite like the Space Marines to NOT be swiss cheese vs every weapon in the game). Pulsars fit perfectly with the Eldar gameplay and aren't just situational weapons like the Nova Cannon or torpedoes. The shorter range is a good start for balancing them, but I feel it still needs something more.

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Cryhavok
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Re: Immediate removal of Eldar as a PVP faction

Postby Cryhavok » 20 June 2016, 20:25

I don't think they should be removed from PvP, I just think they should never be allowed to be the defender in anything. Eldar defenders are autowin any time they can run away to victory, which they can do any time they are the defender, it's just sometimes they have to run away for longer periods of time.
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Halstead
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Re: Immediate removal of Eldar as a PVP faction

Postby Halstead » 20 June 2016, 22:08

BrianDavion wrote:
Scorch715 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
heroic difficulty IIRC means he has more points then you do.

that said it proably doesn't help that the nova cannon's damage was absolutely demolished in nerf after nerf after nerf


That would explain the Voidstalker, two Eclipses, and two light cruisers. If you're right about heroic giving them more points, thats a pretty cheap way of increasing difficulty.

Nova cannons really do need a buff again. They were admittedly OP in their original form, but now that the Eldar have to stay relatively close to use their pulsars, buffing the NC so its actually effective in the limited window you can use it would be great.


on that I agree, the nova canon is supposed to be the IN's heavy artillery weapon. it should hit for pretty impressive damage. sadly people even AFTER it got nerfed kept screaming OP because they used tactics that made them vunerable to it. if you tightly pack huge groups of escorts together you deserve what you get
And they never seem to realize that the impact point can drift from the player's original aiming point which you DO NOT see.

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Kadaeux
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Re: Immediate removal of Eldar as a PVP faction

Postby Kadaeux » 21 June 2016, 10:07

Scorch715 wrote: In the Nova Cannons case, only being forward firing, usable at 6k+, and pretty inaccurate is perfectly fine as a balance considering the Dominator is far more effective in a 3k broadsiding battle.


Honestly, the Nova Cannon only needed ONE thing to balance it from it's very original incarnation.

No more than 1 Nova Cannon per 400 points.

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Scorch715
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Re: Immediate removal of Eldar as a PVP faction

Postby Scorch715 » 21 June 2016, 10:29

Kadaeux wrote:
Scorch715 wrote: In the Nova Cannons case, only being forward firing, usable at 6k+, and pretty inaccurate is perfectly fine as a balance considering the Dominator is far more effective in a 3k broadsiding battle.


Honestly, the Nova Cannon only needed ONE thing to balance it from it's very original incarnation.

No more than 1 Nova Cannon per 400 points.


See, I don't think thats really a balanced. If that was implemented, it would place restrictions on the IN lineup that no other race has to deal with. Making the cool down longer on the other hand would be a fairer if rather simplistic option of stopping people spamming Nova Cannons.

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Kadaeux
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Re: Immediate removal of Eldar as a PVP faction

Postby Kadaeux » 21 June 2016, 11:46

Scorch715 wrote:
Kadaeux wrote:
Scorch715 wrote: In the Nova Cannons case, only being forward firing, usable at 6k+, and pretty inaccurate is perfectly fine as a balance considering the Dominator is far more effective in a 3k broadsiding battle.


Honestly, the Nova Cannon only needed ONE thing to balance it from it's very original incarnation.

No more than 1 Nova Cannon per 400 points.


See, I don't think thats really a balanced. If that was implemented, it would place restrictions on the IN lineup that no other race has to deal with. Making the cool down longer on the other hand would be a fairer if rather simplistic option of stopping people spamming Nova Cannons.


Nothing imbalanced about it, it's the same restriction (only more generous) that is often put on tournaments etc. Yes it WOULD be a restriction on the IN lineup no other race had. Which is entirely fair for a weapon that no other race or faction has an equivalent to (ignoring the weird use of it for an Ork favour)

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Re: Immediate removal of Eldar as a PVP faction

Postby Draxynnic » 21 June 2016, 12:47

Scorch715 wrote:I realise this is about PVP and the match I'm about to reference is PVE, but bear with me.

Playing a custom 700pt Cruiser Clash mission against the heroic difficulty Eldar as Imperial Navy. Literally the moment I was spotted, my two leading cruisers lost half their hit points. My opening salvo was a couple of NCs, torpedo spreads, and bomber squadrons and did maybe 100 damage to each of the two Eclipse battlecruisers. From there on in, the Eldar didn't even attempt to stay at range, they were just swarming me and vaporising my ships while there was nothing I could do about it.

In the end, I lost all 5 ships, while the Eldar lost two, and the reason I actually killed one of them was through MWJing a cruiser and shotgun torpedoing it while my other remaining cruiser parked in front of it to stop it speeding away. Focusing my fire on any given ship just wasn't possible because the moment I engaged one it just flew straight out of my broadside arcs and let a different ship engage me.

Now if an AI Eldar can utterly rape you at close range where they're the most vulnerable, I see literally no possible way a skilled human player could ever lose a match.

That final line doesn't seem like it follows to me, since by the sound of it part of what killed you was the AI's perfect micro. Eldar are the most micro-focused faction, and most human players simply won't be able to manage many ships to the finesse you describe - lining up pulsar shots, boosting ships out from fire arcs before taking damage, keeping ships moving to maintain holofields without colliding into anything, and all the micro that other races have to do on top.

I've only played PvE so far, and I've had games playing Eldar where I've been in Tactical Cogitator for pretty much the entire game and STILL felt stressed keeping all my ships properly micro'd (at one point I had a friend watching because he was considering getting the game, and he commented "I was thinking this was a pretty fast-paced game, and then I noticed how slowly the seconds were ticking down...). For all but the fastest players, the micro burden for Eldar is one of their greatest weaknesses... but that's actually a strength for the AI, since the AI can pay attention to and micro all of its ships. (And if anything, the recent changes might have made the Eldar even more micro-intensive)

Human players can generally still beat the AI through better tactical thinking, but I think you'll find that most human players can't replicate what the AI did to you there.

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Scorch715
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Re: Immediate removal of Eldar as a PVP faction

Postby Scorch715 » 21 June 2016, 13:13

Draxynnic wrote:That final line doesn't seem like it follows to me, since by the sound of it part of what killed you was the AI's perfect micro. Eldar are the most micro-focused faction, and most human players simply won't be able to manage many ships to the finesse you describe - lining up pulsar shots, boosting ships out from fire arcs before taking damage, keeping ships moving to maintain holofields without colliding into anything, and all the micro that other races have to do on top.

I've only played PvE so far, and I've had games playing Eldar where I've been in Tactical Cogitator for pretty much the entire game and STILL felt stressed keeping all my ships properly micro'd (at one point I had a friend watching because he was considering getting the game, and he commented "I was thinking this was a pretty fast-paced game, and then I noticed how slowly the seconds were ticking down...). For all but the fastest players, the micro burden for Eldar is one of their greatest weaknesses... but that's actually a strength for the AI, since the AI can pay attention to and micro all of its ships. (And if anything, the recent changes might have made the Eldar even more micro-intensive)

Human players can generally still beat the AI through better tactical thinking, but I think you'll find that most human players can't replicate what the AI did to you there.


Actually, you raise a very good point. My mind is still latched firmly onto the idea that a skilled human player is always better than the AI, but when considering how micro intensive this game can be I reckon you're right. I'm still going to stick with my opinion that Eldar in skilled hands are practically unbeatable, but if they have to work hard and practice for it I don't see a problem

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Badgutz
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Re: Immediate removal of Eldar as a PVP faction

Postby Badgutz » 21 June 2016, 13:58

Yeh and remove Orks too while your at it or give us a buff........................
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Re: Immediate removal of Eldar as a PVP faction

Postby artisticMink » 22 June 2016, 23:36

It's a bold request and it most likely won't happen.

Thing is, if i'm entirely honest - i would actually support it. I feel like they need a rework from the ground up. I don't think it's possible to make eldar fun to play as-and-against with cooldown tweaking.

The basic problem i see with them, ist the factions ability to have complete control over the engagement. Eldar ships can outrun every other ship in the game, which enables the player to approach and disengage at will without much risk. The only thing that could go wrong would be a bad lightning strike / homing boarding torpedo roll.

While engagements with other factions can take up to a few minutes, games against or as eldar are in my experience very short, as you need two to three pulsar pulses per enemy ship (Depending on focused crystal proc and all three pulses hitting). That's enough time for maybe one set of cooldowns to refresh. A lot of people arguing with slanesh favors, homing boarding torpedoes or just straightout 'go boarding' don't take into account that the damage output of pulsars is - even after the patch - so high that engagements don't last more then two minutes. Usually.

I read quite often that Eldars are very micro-heavy and therefore deserve a high payout. In all honesty and without wanting to offend anyone: I don't see it. Even when playing my light cruiser uthwe setup and i have about seven ships under control, it's not more micro intensive then managing my imperial fleet. Staying out of range, vaulting and using darkstar squadron is not rocket science.

Without knowing hot the situation is here, on the steam forums there's quite a bit of frustration. Yes sure, it's the steam forums and the salt is thick and old. But disconnecting in matchups against eldars is a thing. I've to admit that i did it myself after loosing one to many times and just not wanting to deal with it. The 2v2 best choice for boosting a friend is to take your eldar commander on a walk.

In contrast to that, i don't see that many Eldar in MP. I see a lot of chaos, some imps and few orkz. Eldars are rather rare. Probably sounds like it contradicts my eldar whine but the thing is: A lot of people don't enjoy playing eldar. Either because they don't feel it being a challenge or they don't want to get disconnected by other players all the time. At least that's what i'm taking from it.

What i want to say is: Currently, Playing AS eldar isn't fun. Playing AGAINST eldar isn't fun. I know Tindalos can't rework the whole faction because of time constraints and the fact that it's a part of the single player experience. But i would very much appriciate if they could give the faction another in-depth look. For the sake of eldar and non-eldar players alike.


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