Lets us talk about the new Ork balance changes and you

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Bludfist
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Re: Lets us talk about the new Ork balance changes and you

Postby Bludfist » 10 June 2016, 20:03

RedDevilCG wrote:I still think the AP upgrade should be changed anyways. Maybe from armour to 25%, to -20 armour or something. This would equalize the field a bit.



yeah i think it should be max -25 armor with the current mechanic of not being allowed to drop it past 25 armor
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RedDevilCG
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Re: Lets us talk about the new Ork balance changes and you

Postby RedDevilCG » 10 June 2016, 20:05

Oh, if armour can't go below 25, then -25 would be okay. I was worried about zeroing out armour in some cases. Of course the Brace for Impact should also still be unaffected.

Then again, overall this would be a buff to the Imperial Navy now that I think about (having higher armour to start with), so maybe I understand why they made it full reduction to 25%.

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Spartan-089
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Re: Lets us talk about the new Ork balance changes and you

Postby Spartan-089 » 10 June 2016, 20:50

Cryhavok wrote:
Spartan-089 wrote:Orks are dead in their current form, because I won't adapt or try anything different, and you cant fix that.


FTFY

Spartan-089 wrote:and will be doublely so when Space Marines hit.


Hurrah, you can tell the future!


Have you even tried using the "new" Orks against good players? I have adapted, refitting all my ships to have Zzaps, and you know what? Orks suck now plain and simple, if you compile of pros vs cons you will see what Im talking about.

Pros
-cheaper ships (now slightly negated by having to take Zzaps)

CONS

-slowest faction (new engine upgrade is a trap, it will cripple your ship)
-poor DPS (no more access to AP rounds, no kannon range upgrades, new gunz upgrade only works with Lock-on orders)
-extra damage from fires and hull breeches
-poor launch bays, worst bombers in the game
-heavily restricted options for upgrades (of 5 upgrade slots available on a ship, 6 if you waste a favor on Bad Moons, 4 of those 5 slots will be for Belt Armor, reduced fire duration, and 2 Zzap upgrades if you want to stand any chance of catching a ship or not having your ship burn itself apart)

----

The taunt removal and AP removal was enough, making Ork ships made out if wood and gasoline was overboard, giving us a "lol rng" speed upgrade was just insulting. As Ive said before Orks are now objectively the worst faction in competitive play.
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Cryhavok
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Re: Lets us talk about the new Ork balance changes and you

Postby Cryhavok » 10 June 2016, 21:12

Spartan-089 wrote:Have you even tried using the "new" Orks against good players? I have adapted, refitting all my ships to have Zzaps, and you know what? Orks suck now plain and simple, if you compile of pros vs cons you will see what Im talking about.

Pros
-cheaper ships (now slightly negated by having to take Zzaps)

CONS

-slowest faction (new engine upgrade is a trap, it will cripple your ship)
-poor DPS (no more access to AP rounds, no kannon range upgrades, new gunz upgrade only works with Lock-on orders)
-extra damage from fires and hull breeches
-poor launch bays, worst bombers in the game
-heavily restricted options for upgrades (of 5 upgrade slots available on a ship, 6 if you waste a favor on Bad Moons, 4 of those 5 slots will be for Belt Armor, reduced fire duration, and 2 Zzap upgrades if you want to stand any chance of catching a ship or not having your ship burn itself apart)

----

The taunt removal and AP removal was enough, making Ork ships made out if wood and gasoline was overboard, giving us a "lol rng" speed upgrade was just insulting. As Ive said before Orks are now objectively the worst faction in competitive play.


You tried one thing and it didn't work for you and you call that adapted. You and I do not use the same definition for the word. By my definition you are at the very beginning of the process of adapting. All you have done is gone, "oh they gave Zzaps a boost and nerfed kannonz, I'll transfer everything into that one thing... It didn't work, orks are dead!" Now if you mean "The way I like to play orks is dead" then I have no argument. It is a fair statement. They are changed, not everyone will like the change and I'm not going to try to convince someone to like something they don't. But you have not adapted.

For the record, yes I have played the new orks, but I don't play a brawler fleet with them, so you won't find me saying "Do X to play brawler orks successfully." I can give advice, for whatever value it has, on doing things in other ways, but so far it doesn't seem like anyone is actually interested in a discussion of "other ways to do things." Most people it seems just want to lament the things lost in the change.
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Spartan-089
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Re: Lets us talk about the new Ork balance changes and you

Postby Spartan-089 » 10 June 2016, 21:35

You have yet to answer if you have won more than lost post patch? Im all ears for these new tactics of yours if they actually work against experienced players?
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Cryhavok
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Re: Lets us talk about the new Ork balance changes and you

Postby Cryhavok » 10 June 2016, 21:47

I am hesitant to claim what my win-loss rate is because it is not something I will ever be actually proving, and I dislike claiming things I can't or won't back up. That being said post patch my win-loss rate it about the same as it was pre-patch: 50/50. I use a rather silly, micro-mangement heavy light cruiser fleet that has no gunz, kannonz, or Zzap. It has torpedoes on the front, ordinance on the sides, Nova Kannonz, and plasma bombs. I am planning on switching the plasma bombs for something else, but am undecided as to what. I basically just spam those light crusiers and fill in with escorts. I don't try to keep my distance, despite being a no-gun fleet, I get in close and ram as often as possible.

Also I annoy the hell out of people by hitting space bar all the time to micromanage stuff. I did have one guy quit because of it... okay more than one. I don't really feel bad about it though.

Also, for the record, I don't make any claim to being even remotely close to being the best player out there. I would rate myself as average.

Edit: I am working on other fleets that I haven't settled on set-ups for also, but that is why I am interested in discussing with people every tactic they can think of.
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Re: Lets us talk about the new Ork balance changes and you

Postby Pile_O_Gunz » 11 June 2016, 11:17

Cryhavok wrote:
Spartan-089 wrote:Have you even tried using the "new" Orks against good players? I have adapted, refitting all my ships to have Zzaps, and you know what? Orks suck now plain and simple, if you compile of pros vs cons you will see what Im talking about.

Pros
-cheaper ships (now slightly negated by having to take Zzaps)

CONS

-slowest faction (new engine upgrade is a trap, it will cripple your ship)
-poor DPS (no more access to AP rounds, no kannon range upgrades, new gunz upgrade only works with Lock-on orders)
-extra damage from fires and hull breeches
-poor launch bays, worst bombers in the game
-heavily restricted options for upgrades (of 5 upgrade slots available on a ship, 6 if you waste a favor on Bad Moons, 4 of those 5 slots will be for Belt Armor, reduced fire duration, and 2 Zzap upgrades if you want to stand any chance of catching a ship or not having your ship burn itself apart)

----

The taunt removal and AP removal was enough, making Ork ships made out if wood and gasoline was overboard, giving us a "lol rng" speed upgrade was just insulting. As Ive said before Orks are now objectively the worst faction in competitive play.


You tried one thing and it didn't work for you and you call that adapted. You and I do not use the same definition for the word. By my definition you are at the very beginning of the process of adapting. All you have done is gone, "oh they gave Zzaps a boost and nerfed kannonz, I'll transfer everything into that one thing... It didn't work, orks are dead!" Now if you mean "The way I like to play orks is dead" then I have no argument. It is a fair statement. They are changed, not everyone will like the change and I'm not going to try to convince someone to like something they don't. But you have not adapted.

For the record, yes I have played the new orks, but I don't play a brawler fleet with them, so you won't find me saying "Do X to play brawler orks successfully." I can give advice, for whatever value it has, on doing things in other ways, but so far it doesn't seem like anyone is actually interested in a discussion of "other ways to do things." Most people it seems just want to lament the things lost in the change.


Your talking to players who have been discussing analysing and experimenting with Ork since beta so don't think we're ignorantly chucking ZZaps on all ships without any idea of the consequence.

ZZaps are weak the only use I had for them is 3 on a Deathdeala as supplementary ranged fire support even 3 on a ship isn't enough as a main dmg dealer so that was only used situationally against Chaos.Sacraficing a customisation point for 1 weak ZZap to compensate for the loss of taunt is terrible.

The ramifications of these changes are not unfathomable they aren't going to lead to a discovery of an amazing new build its obvious to any half decent Ork player why these changes suck.

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Re: Lets us talk about the new Ork balance changes and you

Postby Cryhavok » 11 June 2016, 14:55

Spartan-089 wrote:I have adapted, refitting all my ships to have Zzaps, and you know what? Orks suck now plain and simple, if you compile of pros vs cons you will see what Im talking about.


I respond to this by basically saying that isn't really the greatest idea, and your counter argument is this:

Pile_O_Gunz wrote:Your talking to players who have been discussing analysing and experimenting with Ork since beta so don't think we're ignorantly chucking ZZaps on all ships without any idea of the consequence.


They literally just said they did that.

For the record, I've been experimenting with Orks since beta too, I just haven't been on these forums. I've also been playing video games for a long, long time. Anyone who has can tell you that when "balancing" happens, what is best to do changes. That is a universal concept. I am not expecting people to discover some new amazing build that wins all games ever, I am expecting people to work out the best options since the changes that were made change a lot for how Ork ships need to behave.
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Re: Lets us talk about the new Ork balance changes and you

Postby Imperator5 » 11 June 2016, 15:27

Bludfist wrote:
RedDevilCG wrote:I still think the AP upgrade should be changed anyways. Maybe from armour to 25%, to -20 armour or something. This would equalize the field a bit.



yeah i think it should be max -25 armor with the current mechanic of not being allowed to drop it past 25 armor


That would be good. Taking it away from the orks but not the rest of the four seems like a half-done solution with bias. It needs to go away for Space marine armour to matter anyway in its current form, and the orks don't need the extra punishment.
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Re: Lets us talk about the new Ork balance changes and you

Postby Badgutz » 13 June 2016, 08:43

Yeh I'm not happy with the changes. We lost our skannerz upgrade too and that aint good when facing the stealth fleet builds of chaos and eldar. For my play style looted ships was a nerf too far and since I rarely use lock on as I tend to brace for impact more Dakka is waisted. Learning new play styles ? What are those then ? I don't see anyone posting any "This ork fleet can handle most stuff" ship builds.

I maybe getting long in da tooth but it looks like the only viable fleet now is one that stands off with its gunz and doesn't brawl anything harder than an Eldar ship ? Looted ships makes the fire fighting upgrade a must pick in my mind and standing off at range was never an ork ships strength.........
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