Lets us talk about the new Ork balance changes and you

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Pile_O_Gunz
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Re: Lets us talk about the new Ork balance changes and y

Postby Pile_O_Gunz » 10 June 2016, 17:32

Bludfist wrote:I want to point out how bad, mad mek suicide bomb upgrades are, not only on the practical level cause orks have to clump up so its detrimental to have this upgrade

But it also goes opposed to the philosophy of this game, half the point of the customizing, leveling up, and all other game mechanics is designed to make your ships non-expendible and furthermore to hold "value" to the player whence hy your supposed to try and warp out your ship insted of letting it get heavily damaged and your supposed to invest points in navigator so you dont get lost in the warp.

So it's an unintuitive as a design choice to create a mechanic that rewards you for your ships dying, it is at odds with game mechanics.

Furthermore im bummed that in retrospect kannoz got basically a double nerf with the loss of ap and 3000 range upgrade

I loved the torp launcher + 2 heavy gunz build but i dont think that broadside builds are viable anymore


I didn't even consider the suicice upgrade Its laughable. You have a very limited number of ships in battle if those are blowing up then your probably going to lose. If broadside is indeed dead then my Goff boyz are going into retirement.

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Re: Lets us talk about the new Ork balance changes and you

Postby Bludfist » 10 June 2016, 18:07

Cryhavok wrote: I see orcs as having the highest potential crit rate out of anyone.

currently
SM have just as much boarding potential as Orks....they have boarding torpedoes along with regular torps, they have an attribute similar to savage boarding, and we already read that space wolf favor will give additional +1 boarding just like goff favor

Cryhavok wrote:We might also have to start using more ordinance bays. Fighters can counter both melta torpedos and enemy bombers/assault boats, both of which can be very painful. Having a bunch of fighters defending your fleet can mitigate that a lot, and if they don't have either of those threats, then adding a bunch of assault boats or bombers to your orkish arsenal is not a bad idea.

Ork carriers are weak simply because of expensive they make your ships while granting your only 2 launch bays, which forces you then to go mega kannonz on that ship because 1 lotsa gunz battery alone is super weak, which means you cant get zzzaps. Bombers are really weak their damage output is really low and trying to justify it with crit chance dosnt work nor does the extreamly situational fighter bomber attribute. Other factions get much stronger carrier ships for the price we pay for one

Lastly we do we really the points to put into squadron seargent?

Becuase of the nurgle and khorne nerfs ive already started seeing a meta shift with chaos players respecing into MoS favor which plays havoc with our low morale, we need to put points into chained squigs between that, master gunner and boyz, this not enough points to put into master gunner, while rally is great, as sagrada posted i dont really have the slots to pit it in with all the other stuff we need like overcharge shields, auger disrupt detection probes, etc

Cryhavok wrote: Don't think of it as a nerf to marcos, think of it as moving the macros from DPS to a Tank role, because you can spend all those upgrades on making your ship even harder to kill now, if you want to keep using them. Personally I changed my Macro using Ork ships to having all the shield upgrades and watching people trying to deal with it is pretty funny.

Orks are not ment to be tanks; thats the SM, they are designed to be CQC brawlers being tanky was a byproduct of being so slow that you need a big HP pool to compensate for all hits you take getting into range but now pretty much every faction can out brawl them due to the poorly designed upgrade?

In the grand scheme of things more dakka is a poor upgrade even if all it did was make it so that it can no longer get +50% shots so that you can atleast consistently get 4 shots per weapon battery, it would still be better than this. Then you wouldnt have to blow a special order and perhaps another upgrade slot for the order duration increase upgrade just so that it can compete with kannonz which even after nerfs with removal of range and AP is still the best and most relaible weapons orks have

You want to make sure SM's 75 armor actually means something? Fine either give them an immunity upgrade or remove it from the game from all factions

Cryhavok wrote:A lot of the complaints I see sound to me a lot more like people are still in the middle of the adaptation process rather than anything being truly decided as far as how good the Orks are now. If you have to do more than just "That one tactic" in order to win, I see that as a good thing.


No, i see a faction designed to brawl and fight in CQC have its best weapons reduced in effectiveness while the other alternative we have still uses the randumb mechanic gunz that GW created and in order to make it even decent for a short period of time we have to blow 1-2 upgrade slots
If the SM have access to ap rounds then i fear that orks will end up playing second fiddle and be considered the poor mans SM

People talk a lot about SM's cost and stuff but i look at how people in 700 point matches ran 1 emperor + 2 overlords or 2 eclipse and 1 VS, if your ships/combo are strong enough then the number of ships you field dont always matter as much and if we have start relying more on expensive as carrier ork ships them we cant use the only advantage that orks have over sm which is cheaper ships


Lastly the devs still refuse to do something about blood axe favor nd the stupid nova kannonz
Last edited by Bludfist on 10 June 2016, 18:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Bludfist
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Re: Lets us talk about the new Ork balance changes and y

Postby Bludfist » 10 June 2016, 18:11

Pile_O_Gunz wrote:I didn't even consider the suicice upgrade Its laughable. You have a very limited number of ships in battle if those are blowing up then your probably going to lose. If broadside is indeed dead then my Goff boyz are going into retirement.


with zzzaps now being a strong tool because of their stacking nature and the shield bypass upgrade letting them even be useful vs eldar i think their just...."too good not to have"

but becuase of how kustom points works you cant really build strong broadsides anymore but this was an issue since the beginning for orks and how kustom points work means you can either have a strong prow or a strong boradsides


If the devs had listened to me and others and changed the nova kannonz to a looted bombarment kannon, this wouldnt be an issue
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Re: Lets us talk about the new Ork balance changes and y

Postby Pile_O_Gunz » 10 June 2016, 18:28

Bludfist wrote:
Pile_O_Gunz wrote:I didn't even consider the suicice upgrade Its laughable. You have a very limited number of ships in battle if those are blowing up then your probably going to lose. If broadside is indeed dead then my Goff boyz are going into retirement.


with zzzaps now being a strong tool because of their stacking nature and the shield bypass upgrade letting them even be useful vs eldar i think their just...."too good not to have"

but becuase of how kustom points works you cant really build strong broadsides anymore but this was an issue since the beginning for orks and how kustom points work means you can either have a strong prow or a strong boradsides


If the devs had listened to me and others and changed the nova kannonz to a looted bombarment kannon, this wouldnt be an issue
.

Well good luck Blud ! im off back to total warhammer/overwatch as my fleet sucks and I don't fancy reworking them out of broadsides as it'd spoil their identity in my mind. Also im a bit burnt out on the game after 90hrs !( nearly all of it with the same fleet) I might pop back when the sm are out.

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Re: Lets us talk about the new Ork balance changes and you

Postby Cryhavok » 10 June 2016, 18:31

Bludfist wrote:
Stuff... and things


With the Space marines not being out, I assume your assumptions are coming from the limited exposure we have in the Campaign?

Either way, you talk a lot about what the Orks "are supposed to be" in your mind, or according to whatever you have decided, but it has no bearing on what they actually are, so it is kind of counter productive. Wasteful in my opinion. I don't really care to argue with anyone about what something "is supposed to be." Or arguing with someone about how something that isn't out yet is going to be so much better at everything the orks do. Let me know when you want to talk about what to do with the situation as it is, because that I can help with.
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Re: Lets us talk about the new Ork balance changes and you

Postby Bludfist » 10 June 2016, 19:08

Cryhavok wrote:
Bludfist wrote:
Stuff... and things


With the Space marines not being out, I assume your assumptions are coming from the limited exposure we have in the Campaign?

Either way, you talk a lot about what the Orks "are supposed to be" in your mind, or according to whatever you have decided, but it has no bearing on what they actually are, so it is kind of counter productive. Wasteful in my opinion. I don't really care to argue with anyone about what something "is supposed to be." Or arguing with someone about how something that isn't out yet is going to be so much better at everything the orks do. Let me know when you want to talk about what to do with the situation as it is, because that I can help with.

No it comes from how SM's fleet and their stats were on TT, Orks and SM both have access to +1 boarding trait, they both also have access to boarding torpedo's, we already have the descriptions for DR and SW favors

And to dismiss something as "lolthatswhatyouthink" is a wrongful mind set to have

Because since this is a recreation of the battlefleet gothic armada table top game:

Imperial Navy is SUPPOSED TO BE the jack of all trades faction

Eldar are SUPPOSED TO BE a fragile hit and run faction

Chaos are SUPPOSED TO BE the long range kiting faction

Orks, SM and Tyranids are all CQC brawlers faction, with tyrandis be the strongest of the 3, easily able to decimate any faction in close combat, SM being Orks 2.0 and better in every way but balanced by the fact that orks have much cheaper ships and as such can field more ships vs SM's much more expensive superior quality ones (which i pointed out, dosnt really work here since you can have a powerful fleet with just 3 ships and still be viable)

Now putting all that aside; if Eldar were released are very durable close range monsters ala Orks, one would not simply adopt your attitude of "oh Eldar are beautiful flowers and can be whatever they want to be", rather one would say, no, that is wrong that is not what they are suppose to be and that is not what they were on tabletop
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Spartan-089
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Re: Lets us talk about the new Ork balance changes and you

Postby Spartan-089 » 10 June 2016, 19:23

Cryhavok wrote:Or arguing with someone about how something that isn't out yet is going to be so much better at everything the orks do. Let me know when you want to talk about what to do with the situation as it is, because that I can help with.


You dont have to wait to argue about something being better at everything Orks do, its the Imperial Navy post patch. Imperial ships are now just as survivable (probably better actually) in cqc as Orks with better guns. Orks don't excell at anything now. What the point of being "tanky" if you can't actually dish out damage? Same with being able to catch kiters, you maybe able to catch them with zzaps but it takes ALL your ships focusing that one target to slow AND kill it, while the rest of theyre fleet pummels you at range or splits up. Orks are dead in their current form, and you cant fix that. Sure, youll still be able to win against a newbie, and some sometimes against a good Imp player if they make a BIG mistake. But if against an experienced Chaos or Eldar player? You will now lose 99% of the time, especially chaos who can now in addition to kiting us can out brawl us! Its rediculous! You cant fix this without a patch, orks are unplayable now, and will be doublely so when Space Marines hit.
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Cryhavok
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Re: Lets us talk about the new Ork balance changes and you

Postby Cryhavok » 10 June 2016, 19:30

Bludfist wrote:No it comes from how SM's fleet and their stats were on TT, Orks and SM both have access to +1 boarding trait, they both also have access to boarding torpedo's, we already have the descriptions for DR and SW favors


Ah good to know where you are coming from. Still it is a prediction only, not fact.

Bludfist wrote:And to dismiss something as "lolthatswhatyouthink" is a wrongful mind set to have


I am not dismissing your opinion as a valid opinion. I am dismissing your opinion as useful in anyway to anything I am interested in discussing, namely how to handle the orcs in their current state. What you think they should be is in no way relevant to that. Hell what I think they should be isn't relevant to it. I am not really interested in discussing how anyone feels about the current state of the orcs, I am interested in discussing what tactics are currently viable.

You on the other hand want to talk about what the orcs should be like, and how they are not currently what you think they should be. However valid your statements are in that, neither of us is interested in what the other is discussing. I won't be talking about what I think the orcs should be like, so continuing to engage you is somewhat pointless. It accomplishes nothing I am interested in, namely a meeting of the minds to figure out viable and interesting ways to use the orcs and win victories.

When you are interested in discussing tactics, come find me, I'd be happy to talk about it. When I want to talk about how I think the orcs should be I'll come find you, I'm sure the conversation will be interesting.
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Cryhavok
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Re: Lets us talk about the new Ork balance changes and you

Postby Cryhavok » 10 June 2016, 19:35

Spartan-089 wrote:Orks are dead in their current form, because I won't adapt or try anything different, and you cant fix that.


FTFY

Spartan-089 wrote:and will be doublely so when Space Marines hit.


Hurrah, you can tell the future!
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Re: Lets us talk about the new Ork balance changes and you

Postby RedDevilCG » 10 June 2016, 19:59

I still think the AP upgrade should be changed anyways. Maybe from armour to 25%, to -20 armour or something. This would equalize the field a bit.


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