Lets us talk about the new Ork balance changes and you

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MysticForce
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Re: Lets us talk about the new Ork balance changes and you

Postby MysticForce » 10 June 2016, 14:56

Even before the patch a fully dedicated brawling fleet from IN can out brawl a non-Goff fleet. Chaos brawler setups also worked as well, thanks to Nurgle.

After the patch I don't see my IN fleet ever losing to an Ork fleet. I out shoot and out ram Orks now. In fact, I don't even see my Chaos brawler fleet ever losing to Orks - the nerf to Nurgle dropped boarding action from 11% success rate to 21% success rate...woo... With AP rounds, and Ork's inability to deal with extra damage taken from hull breaches and fires, 2 dedicated Nurgle tanks with DPS support would also walk all over Ork fleets.

To deal with a kiting fleet, Red Sunz is even more necessary with Taunt gone, because now you need it's versatility to make sure you aren't out gunned within 3k. The minor DPS increase by ramming enemy ships together used to be a novelty, but now it's required, because it's a much more significant part of a Ork fleet's damage potential. Plus, now Orks actually need the traktor for its defensive capabilities too - gotta keep some of those AP brawlers away so you can deal with them piecemeal rather than all at once.

Every crit that doesn't do subsystem damage cause fires, which means the 50% fire duration is pretty much a required upgrade now, just like Chained Squiggs used to be. Both brought Ork ships to baseline with other factions.

Broadside cannons don't even make sense anymore - you can't broadside your Zzap focus target unless your ships turn away from the enemy they are chasing, at 3k range. Which means you've wasted most of your effort for catching up to the enemy because you have to point your prowl at the enemy again to continue the chase. The only saving grace for this build are the torpedoes...with Red Sunz you can drag enemy ships into massive fields of torpedo fire.

Eh, I guess with time and a lot more trial and error a generally viable build can be found without going with Blood Axes and Nova spam...

oldman
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Re: Lets us talk about the new Ork balance changes and you

Postby oldman » 10 June 2016, 15:33

Just use the new replacement for the AP and USE the lock on . You will see a HUGE damage increase. In fact you do even MORE damage against shields and against any armor other than IN front. The drawback is that you do not do it all the time so you need to think a bit more and find the best moment. You still have more HP than the IN and you can win a brawling fight as long as IN does nto manage to put your ship on fire with the melta torpedoes.

oldman
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Re: Lets us talk about the new Ork balance changes and you

Postby oldman » 10 June 2016, 15:35

Sagranda wrote:
oldman wrote:
Spartan-089 wrote:
Im losing to players who I've destroyed with ease before the patch.



well, maybe because Orks were super OP before? Orks destroyed easily ANY player unless the Ork player made stupid mistakes.


Let me guess. You are an Imperial Navy player



Nope.. and Ork player that had started trying to use IN a few weeks ago because it felt stupidly easy playing with Orks and was about to drop the game because it required no thinking from me.

oldman
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Re: Lets us talk about the new Ork balance changes and you

Postby oldman » 10 June 2016, 15:37

Bludfist wrote:I want to point out how bad, mad mek suicide bomb upgrades are, not only on the practical level cause orks have to clump up so its detrimental to have this upgrade

But it also goes opposed to the philosophy of this game, half the point of the customizing, leveling up, and all other game mechanics is designed to make your ships non-expendible and furthermore to hold "value" to the player whence hy your supposed to try and warp out your ship insted of letting it get heavily damaged and your supposed to invest points in navigator so you dont get lost in the warp.

So it's an unintuitive as a design choice to create a mechanic that rewards you for your ships dying, it is at odds with game mechanics.

Furthermore im bummed that in retrospect kannoz got basically a double nerf with the loss of ap and 3000 range upgrade

I loved the torp launcher + 2 heavy gunz build but i dont think that broadside builds are viable anymore


well logically yes you are right.. but since when Orks are logical? :P It could be worth if the damage was a bit higher (enough to make sure eldars will not want to be anywhere close for example)

MysticForce
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Re: Lets us talk about the new Ork balance changes and you

Postby MysticForce » 10 June 2016, 15:40

oldman wrote:Just use the new replacement for the AP and USE the lock on . You will see a HUGE damage increase. In fact you do even MORE damage against shields and against any armor other than IN front. The drawback is that you do not do it all the time so you need to think a bit more and find the best moment. You still have more HP than the IN and you can win a brawling fight as long as IN does nto manage to put your ship on fire with the melta torpedoes.


It only works with Gunz, not with kannonz, and you get the most bang for the buck from your broadside guns. This is why I out ram Orks with my IN fleet now - while Orks pop Lock On and try to pierce 75% frontal armor (95% with Brace), I'm ramming the hell out of them while out passively out broadsiding them.

It's good on paper, but not particularly good in practice so far.

oldman
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Re: Lets us talk about the new Ork balance changes and you

Postby oldman » 10 June 2016, 15:43

MysticForce wrote:
oldman wrote:Just use the new replacement for the AP and USE the lock on . You will see a HUGE damage increase. In fact you do even MORE damage against shields and against any armor other than IN front. The drawback is that you do not do it all the time so you need to think a bit more and find the best moment. You still have more HP than the IN and you can win a brawling fight as long as IN does nto manage to put your ship on fire with the melta torpedoes.


It only works with Gunz, not with kannonz, and you get the most bang for the buck from your broadside guns. This is why I out ram Orks with my IN fleet now - while Orks pop Lock On and try to pierce 75% frontal armor (95% with Brace), I'm ramming the hell out of them while out passively out broadsiding them.

It's good on paper, but not particularly good in practice so far.



Fair enough, most of my fleet used Eavy Gunz not kannonz so I did not noticed much about the usage limitation. But you must remember every second an imperial is doing a ramming attack is a second it is not firing most if not all of its weapons. So its not an automatically " do it all the time" thing".

MysticForce
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Re: Lets us talk about the new Ork balance changes and you

Postby MysticForce » 10 June 2016, 16:23

oldman wrote:
MysticForce wrote:
oldman wrote:Just use the new replacement for the AP and USE the lock on . You will see a HUGE damage increase. In fact you do even MORE damage against shields and against any armor other than IN front. The drawback is that you do not do it all the time so you need to think a bit more and find the best moment. You still have more HP than the IN and you can win a brawling fight as long as IN does nto manage to put your ship on fire with the melta torpedoes.


It only works with Gunz, not with kannonz, and you get the most bang for the buck from your broadside guns. This is why I out ram Orks with my IN fleet now - while Orks pop Lock On and try to pierce 75% frontal armor (95% with Brace), I'm ramming the hell out of them while out passively out broadsiding them.

It's good on paper, but not particularly good in practice so far.



Fair enough, most of my fleet used Eavy Gunz not kannonz so I did not noticed much about the usage limitation. But you must remember every second an imperial is doing a ramming attack is a second it is not firing most if not all of its weapons. So its not an automatically " do it all the time" thing".


If it's a 1 vs 1 fight, then yeah, a ramming ship isn't broadsiding anyone. However, in a fleet engagement - particularly with Ork ships having to clump up to concentrate fire on a single target - a ramming ship can broadside to its hearts content on other enemy ships in range. It also doesn't help Orks that a braced Imperial ship's armor is 95/95/95/75... which is practically invulnerable against Orks who no longer have AP rounds.

I play all fleets with the exception of Eldar after release (played during beta, didn't play it during release due to all the salt), so I agree that pre-patch traktor+taunt was in many ways just as ridiculous as 9-12k pulsars. However, I also have to point out that, post-patch, it is entirely ridiculous for Orks to be so ineffective within 3k, especially since it is the only range they are supposed to be good at.

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Cryhavok
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Re: Lets us talk about the new Ork balance changes and you

Postby Cryhavok » 10 June 2016, 16:49

With their ability to stack so many assault actions on the enemy (which means crits, even if they are temporary), and the nerf to everyone's defense against assault actions, I am still not seeing how orks are screwed in all fights. Can't handle IN bracing, focus crits on their deck. Can't handle lance kite, focus crits on the weapons and fix the problem. I see orcs as having the highest potential crit rate out of anyone.

They might be relegated to temporary crits, but they are still crippling effects.

We might also have to start using more ordinance bays. Fighters can counter both melta torpedos and enemy bombers/assault boats, both of which can be very painful. Having a bunch of fighters defending your fleet can mitigate that a lot, and if they don't have either of those threats, then adding a bunch of assault boats or bombers to your orkish arsenal is not a bad idea.

A lot of the complaints I see sound to me a lot more like people are still in the middle of the adaptation process rather than anything being truly decided as far as how good the Orks are now. If you have to do more than just "That one tactic" in order to win, I see that as a good thing.

As for the macro cannon nerf, If you are using macros, and you can't really upgrade them, then that leaves you open to take non-DPS things. Don't think of it as a nerf to macros, think of it as moving the macros from DPS to a Tank role, because you can spend all those upgrades on making your ship even harder to kill now, if you want to keep using them. Personally I changed my Macro using Ork ships to having all the shield upgrades and watching people trying to deal with it is pretty funny.
Last edited by Cryhavok on 10 June 2016, 18:03, edited 1 time in total.
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oldman
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Re: Lets us talk about the new Ork balance changes and you

Postby oldman » 10 June 2016, 17:13

MysticForce wrote:
oldman wrote:
MysticForce wrote:
It only works with Gunz, not with kannonz, and you get the most bang for the buck from your broadside guns. This is why I out ram Orks with my IN fleet now - while Orks pop Lock On and try to pierce 75% frontal armor (95% with Brace), I'm ramming the hell out of them while out passively out broadsiding them.

It's good on paper, but not particularly good in practice so far.



Fair enough, most of my fleet used Eavy Gunz not kannonz so I did not noticed much about the usage limitation. But you must remember every second an imperial is doing a ramming attack is a second it is not firing most if not all of its weapons. So its not an automatically " do it all the time" thing".


If it's a 1 vs 1 fight, then yeah, a ramming ship isn't broadsiding anyone. However, in a fleet engagement - particularly with Ork ships having to clump up to concentrate fire on a single target - a ramming ship can broadside to its hearts content on other enemy ships in range. It also doesn't help Orks that a braced Imperial ship's armor is 95/95/95/75... which is practically invulnerable against Orks who no longer have AP rounds.

I play all fleets with the exception of Eldar after release (played during beta, didn't play it during release due to all the salt), so I agree that pre-patch traktor+taunt was in many ways just as ridiculous as 9-12k pulsars. However, I also have to point out that, post-patch, it is entirely ridiculous for Orks to be so ineffective within 3k, especially since it is the only range they are supposed to be good at.


isn't it 95/75/75/75?



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