Could we have some variety for orky playstyle?

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Cripple X
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Re: Could we have some variety for orky playstyle?

Postby Cripple X » 13 May 2016, 15:10

Kadaeux wrote:I disagree in every way possible. I've played viable Karrier only fleets. (All Kustom points are spent on launch bays, all ships are given Bad Moon, Extra Tellyportas, and other upgrades to tastes, strategy is absolute monstering with Teleport assaults, Assault Boats and Boarding Torpedoes with Shokk Attacks as the opportunity presents itself.)

While I agree with a lot of what you said and I certainly understand your point, I'm afraid I will have to disagree with you over thinking this is 'viable.' I've run this exact build a few times and in my opinion it's not that great. It can be somewhat effective while leveling your fleet, sure, and it does give the Orks a ranged option, but it really started to suck in high level multiplayer because all of your assault actions just get resisted. Is it a fun build? Sure. Is it actually "viable"? No, not in my opinion. I don't think that running a Karrier only fleet is competitive in a game with two players of equal skill levels.

Maybe you're just a better player than I am or maybe we just disagree on the meaning of viable, but I think that given two players who play with equal skill and with equally upgraded fleets then a Karrier fleet will nearly always lose. To me that isn't viable.
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Beernchips
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Re: Could we have some variety for orky playstyle?

Postby Beernchips » 13 May 2016, 16:01

Viable doesn t mean optimal.
Karrier fleet is certainly not the best carrier fleet of the game nor the best Ork fleet at the moment but you can get good results with it because it gives 12k range to Orks which can surprise a lot of enemies.
Just don t run it vs Chaos cause they almost always have fighter screen
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Cripple X
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Re: Could we have some variety for orky playstyle?

Postby Cripple X » 13 May 2016, 16:42

Beernchips wrote:Viable doesn t mean optimal.

No, it doesn't and I wasn't saying that it did.

Viable also doesn't mean merely possible. It means feasible. That the possibility of success exists.

In this context, I would say that viable means that you should have a fair chance to win (50/50) all other things being equal though some other builds may win more efficiently or at a higher ratio (the optimal build). I take issue with the fact that the Karrier fleet has a 50/50 chance to win at higher level multiplayer. I'm not talking about trying to out Carrier Chaos--you're going to lose that and that's okay. I'm just talking about any random fleet. The kiting fleets are going to out kite you and the brawler fleets are going to ignore your assault actions. When all the chips are down you're going to lose a lot more than you win, assuming both you and the other player are competent at playing their respective fleets and have the same level of upgrades.

Feel free to disagree, that's fine.
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Re: Could we have some variety for orky playstyle?

Postby Jaw Rippa » 16 May 2016, 10:41

Kadaeux wrote:
Jaw Rippa wrote:Currently our only viable options are Megacannons, Rams and Traktor beams. This results in close combat monsters that are easily kited, but once in range, shred ships into pieces. Its all fun and that but makes orks predictable and shoehorning players into the same builds.


I disagree in every way possible. I've played viable Karrier only fleets. (All Kustom points are spent on launch bays, all ships are given Bad Moon, Extra Tellyportas, and other upgrades to tastes, strategy is absolute monstering with Teleport assaults, Assault Boats and Boarding Torpedoes with Shokk Attacks as the opportunity presents itself.)

Im not sure if you are joking or not, about orky distance assault carrier fleet, but that got me interested. I didnt even think about it because of how dissapointed I was by my few light cruisers that got it. Whats your rough statistics against other races?

Kadaeux wrote:
- Ork bombers are useless. Why not increase their damage, or add special effect like temporarily slowing targets?


Ork Bombers have never been their strength. And why should they magically slow targets? If you're going to throw ideas out there. Throw out ones that actually fit the lore.

I was thinking about scrap from bombs getting into engines of target ship, but I agree, its silly. Still, Im sure bombers could use a buff to make them a viable choice if situation arises. How about they go kamikazee style on enemy ship for additional damage+crit chance if they got shot down near that ship?

Kadaeux wrote:
- Zzap cannon could sap shields and give % of it to ork ship. This way you actually will consider it as a chase tool.


See above, why give a weapon an ability it's never displayed ever in any way shape or form? I also fail to see how that makes it a chase tool, given that if the enemy is running away, thus requiring a 'chase' the Ork ships' shields aren't under any real danger anyway?

Well, it allows you to soak up hits and "warm up" enemies while you are closing in. Let me rephrase, it does not help to chase better, it allows to suffer less from beeing kited and give you more time to close in.

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Kadaeux
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Re: Could we have some variety for orky playstyle?

Postby Kadaeux » 16 May 2016, 11:41

Jaw Rippa wrote:Im not sure if you are joking or not, about orky distance assault carrier fleet, but that got me interested. I didnt even think about it because of how dissapointed I was by my few light cruisers that got it. Whats your rough statistics against other races?


Not joking at all, it's a fun fleet. It's still better up close (maximised boarding torpedoes + tellyporta strikes) The Karrier King fleet relies on throwing every possible boarding action you can out there.

It's less effective against Chaos who can throw the most fighters out. I find it's utterly excellent against Eldar, despite Darkstars, you hurl a LOT of boarding down-range, and Eldar don't do very well against it.

I was thinking about scrap from bombs getting into engines of target ship, but I agree, its silly. Still, Im sure bombers could use a buff to make them a viable choice if situation arises. How about they go kamikazee style on enemy ship for additional damage+crit chance if they got shot down near that ship?


The catch is that, ultimately bombing isn't really the Orks style. Even on the TT (which Tindalos are sticking close to) the Ork bombers were literally only half as effective as anyone else. (But they also doubled as fighters) And Kamikaze isn't going to do much against ships with tens of metres thick armour :p

Well, it allows you to soak up hits and "warm up" enemies while you are closing in. Let me rephrase, it does not help to chase better, it allows to suffer less from beeing kited and give you more time to close in.


That's not the point. It's one think to think up ideas that fit the lore etc. But your idea for them has simply never been seen anywhere in the Lore. It just doesn't work.

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Re: Could we have some variety for orky playstyle?

Postby Jaw Rippa » 16 May 2016, 12:39

Kadaeux wrote:
I was thinking about scrap from bombs getting into engines of target ship, but I agree, its silly. Still, Im sure bombers could use a buff to make them a viable choice if situation arises. How about they go kamikazee style on enemy ship for additional damage+crit chance if they got shot down near that ship?


The catch is that, ultimately bombing isn't really the Orks style. Even on the TT (which Tindalos are sticking close to) the Ork bombers were literally only half as effective as anyone else. (But they also doubled as fighters) And Kamikaze isn't going to do much against ships with tens of metres thick armour :p

Well, if bomber had some bombs left on it, then its going to make an impact even on bigger ships) Thing is , why would I use bombers(which are used almost purely to fish crits) if I can fish for crits with assault boats?

Kadaeux wrote:
Well, it allows you to soak up hits and "warm up" enemies while you are closing in. Let me rephrase, it does not help to chase better, it allows to suffer less from beeing kited and give you more time to close in.


That's not the point. It's one think to think up ideas that fit the lore etc. But your idea for them has simply never been seen anywhere in the Lore. It just doesn't work.

If Im not mistaking, MWJ is also not a part of BFGA lore, yet it is in the game. Following tabletops blindly results in Space Hulk mess, which utterly dissapointed me (a huge SH boardgame fan), yet SH: Ascension that had some additions to gameplay was fun.

Its bloody ork tech we are talking about - mekboyz can do a lot of unique stuff. I don't see shield sapping zzap guns to be extremely lore raping - and if you think they are, then tell me how zzap guns should be buffed(if they actually need a buff).

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MadDemiurg
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Re: Could we have some variety for orky playstyle?

Postby MadDemiurg » 16 May 2016, 16:54

I don't think ork weapons need some special new mechanics to make them viable. In short, I think the following changes for ork weapons would make sense (will post the reasoning later as I've been thinking about writing a post about ork rebalancing for a while, but it's just too much to do in one go for me):

-Lotsa guns - significantly buff dps. Ballpark estimate is at least 50%. Current 2 dps is a joke. I wanted to do some math to verify how it looks like in terms or dps per hp per point to actually chose a good number.
-Zzaps - significantly buff crit chance (currently it's really crappy compared to other lance batteries). Smth like +66% (8->13) looks ok. I believe that combined with lotsa guns buff that would be enough to make a viable mid/long range ork ship
-Kannons - Increase point cost. Mega kannon LCs for 97 points are ridiculous. I'd say megas should cost at least the same as torp launchers, and heavies should be like 5-10 points over gunz instead of 1
-Launchbays - decrease cost by several points. Ork carriers are too expensive for what they bring to the table. Review bomber damage/mechanics (according to the latest dev post they seem not that bad bt in practice they seemed pretty bad)

Again, I need to run all numbers through some calculations/comparisons to verify if they make sense. But I believe smth along these lines would be good.

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Re: Could we have some variety for orky playstyle?

Postby MysticForce » 16 May 2016, 21:13

I wouldn't mind having something else associated with WAAAGH either. Extra boarding action just seem so plain for a race-defining trait. It's supposed to whip Orks into a frenzy after all. Maybe increase fire rate of all weapons by 15%, and 50% decrease in likelyhood of insubordination for its duration. There should not be morale problems while WAAAGHis underway. This will give Ork players a choice to not bring chained squiggs, as long as there's enough ships with WAAAGH!

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Kadaeux
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Re: Could we have some variety for orky playstyle?

Postby Kadaeux » 16 May 2016, 22:24

Jaw Rippa wrote:If Im not mistaking, MWJ is also not a part of BFGA lore, yet it is in the game. Following tabletops blindly results in Space Hulk mess, which utterly dissapointed me (a huge SH boardgame fan), yet SH: Ascension that had some additions to gameplay was fun.


MWJ's appear in the lore. Not as micro as in BFG:A, but they do appear.

Its bloody ork tech we are talking about - mekboyz can do a lot of unique stuff. I don't see shield sapping zzap guns to be extremely lore raping - and if you think they are, then tell me how zzap guns should be buffed(if they actually need a buff).


It's exceptionally lore breaking, Ork power fields and other folks Void Shields do not have some percentage value, you have to overwhelm one layer of shield. Then it goes down and you have to break down the next layer of shielding. Lorewise, until you are throwing enough firepower at a void to bring it down, you can throw firepower at it literally indefinitely and it will never go down.

I admit I was disappointed that Tindalos made them function as generic scifi-shields 51, but understand it from a game design perspective.

But no, Zzap guns don't need to be buffed. They do just fine in the same roll other lances do *Shrugs*.

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Re: Could we have some variety for orky playstyle?

Postby Cripple X » 16 May 2016, 22:51

I agree Orks don't really need to see buffs to what we already have. What we have works well, IMHO. We just need a little diversity.
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