Make the other favors as viable as Red Sunz!

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Jerjare
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Make the other favors as viable as Red Sunz!

Postby Jerjare » 05 May 2016, 20:14

RIght now Red Sunz is far and away the best favor for Orks to take. The hyper-optimized build for Orks calls for an all Red Sunz fleet. This is evident for two reasons:

1.) Tractor beam is probably one of the most versatile abilities in the game. It is a fun ability, but it has SO MANY applications, any other favor is contending with being 'not a tractor beam'. Its so essential that most other favors are an unnecessary sacrifice.

2.) The passive ability has good synergy for getting into tractor beam range. Vs chaos and elder, Orks need gap closers, and faster maneuver gauge regen fits the bill.

So what can we do with other favors to make them equally viable, so that the player really needs to think about what to take? And how can we alter them in a way that they're just as good on a battleship as on a light cruiser? Here are my ideas:

Blood Axes: Change Nova Cannon to Siege Gun, which fires a single projectile up to 12k away straight ahead, dealing 200 damage. Doesn't ignore shields but treats armor like it has 25 rating. The speed of the projectile is comparable to Imperial Navy's short burn torpedoes. The main advantage is that it has no minimum range, so you could fire it off point-blank at targets, or snipe at them from gas clouds.

Kommando Training would get changed to an active ability that causes the ship to switch places with a gas cloud, asteroid field or mine 3000 units away. This would have a lot of tactical applications, from running away during Assasination defense missions, to closing the distance on an enemy hiding in a nearby gas cloud (Tzeenech gas cloud would be unaffected, obviously)

Goffs: Rammin Gob is now an active ability with an extremely narrow forward arc (upgrading Grot thrusters would widen this). Target an enemy ship, and your ship will try to ram it in an intercept path, traveling at BRB speed briefly and dealing 50% more ramming damage while the ability was active. By making it an active ability, you could more reliably hit enemies with ramming and you could combine it with other gap closers to quickly close in to ram targets.

Bad Moonz: Shokk gun changed to function similar to present Nova cannon; you fire a large AoE attack after a brief delay and any enemy ships covered in the radius will suffer a single assault action. The difference here is that you can blind fire it to try to target blips, and you have a good chance of boarding multiple ships (essentially you are shotgun-teleporting an enormous amount of grots in the area, hoping there is a spaceship occupying their space).

Ulfgardtheunmaker
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Re: Make the other favors as viable as Red Sunz!

Postby Ulfgardtheunmaker » 05 May 2016, 23:34

Personally, I think the Goff favor is more or less fine as it is. I know the current meta is mainly an all Sunz build, but I really don't consider it as effective overall.

I run a very Goff-heavy fleet, with Bad Moonz on my karriers. I routinely come up against all Sunz fleets, and while it can be dicey, roughly 7 out of 10 engagements, my fleet comes out ahead. That's not me stroking my e-peen, I'll admit that I'm not particularly good at the game. Maybe I've just had the good fortune to be matched against players of comparable ineptitude in most cases.

I see the appeal of sticking it to kiting fleets, I do, but to my way of thinking it's much more important to have raw combat power once you get stuck in. Traktors are handy for bringing the enemy to you, and I know just as well as anyone how futile it can be to chase a skilled Eldar player all over the map while your ships disintegrate.

A primarily Goff fleet doesn't mitigate the weaknesses of the faction in any way, as a Sunz fleet would, but instead further emphasizes our strengths. Especially if you prefer a heavy kannon broadside (as I do) as opposed to a prow Mega Kannon build, enemies dissolve. This is where a Goffs vs. Sunz match is decided: once we've been pulled into a position to be rammed by the Sunz, the boarding buffs and counter-rams typically carry the match. In point of fact, I've been seeing a number of Sunz fleets use Traktor to try to push Goff ships out of the danger zone, but it's nothing that liberal use of the BRB can't fix.

In short, why settle for a club when you can have a hammer?

Regarding the proposed alterations to the existing favors:

Goff Rammin' Gob is fine as it is. The suggestion to make it an activatable comparable to an even shorter duration version of BRB needlessly complicates a simple and effective upgrade, in addition to adding yet another activatable to your abilities of which there are already entirely too many, imo. If you can't reliably hit prow-on by lining up and hitting the BRB as normal, changing it to require either a click or a hotkeyed button press will only make it clumsier for you in the long run.

Bad Moonz Shokk Attack gun is also entirely serviceable in its current state: simple and effective. Sure you can't blind-fire with it, but the range is good, and you don't have to worry about crippling your own ship because you got caught in the AOE. For a faction that relies on being "stuck in," a large AOE that can potentially hit your own ships sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. Boardin' Torpedoes already pose this risk if you fire them carelessly, but an AOE Shokk Attack sounds even worse. The ideal use for it as it stands (according purely to my own experience) us on something like a carrier, where you can choose single troublesome targets at a distance, allowing you to focus them down somewhat faster without additional risk to any of your ships that may already be in the area. I do realize that you and I are speaking from different stages of the engagement (you at its opening, for punishing hide-and-kite playstyles, whereas I am referring to use during the engagement proper), but I feel like the change you've proposed will, like theproposed change to the Goff Rammin' Gob, overly complicate things during the actual fighting.

------------------------
As an aside, I'm terribly sorry if this post comes across as overly confrontational; it isn't intended to be so. I certainly take issue with the ideas, but not you personally, so I do hope this isn't taken as an attack.

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MadDemiurg
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Re: Make the other favors as viable as Red Sunz!

Postby MadDemiurg » 06 May 2016, 00:16

You can slam enemy ships into each other with traktors thus turning Goff bonus against themselves. Tbh you might want to use 1 Goff ship atm as something you traktor your enemies to.

All in all tho, evil suns has no competition. Without them orks don't have enough cathc up tools. Imo it's a bad design to have a faction that is so vulnerable to kiting and add a favour that allows to fix that. Of course everyone will take it.

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Bludfist
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Re: Make the other favors as viable as Red Sunz!

Postby Bludfist » 06 May 2016, 00:32

Ulfgardtheunmaker wrote:
Bad Moonz Shokk Attack gun is also entirely serviceable in its current state: simple and effective.



I disagree

Late game shok attack completely falls off in effectiveness when enemy ships have 79-89 troop value and belt armor

Heres what shok attack is, its a 1 long range assault action with min and max range that requires targets to be identified on a very long 2 min CD, we use this ability for; like you your self said, vs kiting ships with the hopes of destroying a critical ship component like engines.

The problem is late game due to favors, crew points and belt armor, assault actions have a pretty noticeable failure rate even then if it success its still rolling from the standard assault action table, so that one shok attack that mange to succed? All it does is start a useless fire and you just blew a 2min CD for that

The abilit simply has too much RNG, and no dont give me that bs about LOLRNGBECUASEORKZ


As it is right now, no favor can compete with the sheer synergy, utility, consistency and control of Evil Sunz, and the ES favor fellt must have not know how to manipulate ships and control you rams with their trakktors if they lost to you

Yeah goffs is nice and all +10 troops and ram dmg but you need some evil sunz with goffs to pull enemy ships into your rams otherwise vs good players ive seen its easy to dodge orks very obvious telegraphed ramming, i put it on my deathdela
Chaos walking into Aldorf be like
Spoiler : :
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Jerjare
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Re: Make the other favors as viable as Red Sunz!

Postby Jerjare » 07 May 2016, 02:40

My idea was to allow Shokk the potential to board multiple targets, making it exponentially more effective than it is now, and giving it a very unique and Orky ability to do a boarding action without necessarily having to SEE the target. With the radius being what it is, it would be very possible to board 2 or 3 ships at a time, increasing the chances that something connects. It would also be handy vs transports for starting fires and stuff since people tend to clump them up.

Pile_O_Gunz
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Re: Make the other favors as viable as Red Sunz!

Postby Pile_O_Gunz » 07 May 2016, 12:07

Ulf is right Goffs emphasise Orks strengths rather than compensate for their weakness. I beat most other Orks with my Goffs but when it comes to Eldar my win-rate is abysmal.

The problem is that Ork mobility is such a massive weakness the current meta demands you compensate for it in every way so its no surprise you see so many Sunz .

I don't think Sunz is any stronger than the other favors they are just faster and better chasers(unsurprisingly) and thats what Orks need most at the moment.

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Bludfist
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Re: Make the other favors as viable as Red Sunz!

Postby Bludfist » 07 May 2016, 12:20

I don't understand what you guys mean by emphasizing orks "strength" with goff favor

Ramming is just one component of orks playstyle, one that without real set up people can dodge as ork ships ramming is very obvious and to that extent thats why evil sunz is even better for ramming becuase you can pull or throw ships into ramming ships

So your ramming becomes much more consistent hits when

Orks strength comes being strong CQC race

Any one who is dismissing evil sunz favor as just something to go faster is compleatly ingnoring or undervaluing the utility of trakktors
Chaos walking into Aldorf be like
Spoiler : :
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Pile_O_Gunz
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Re: Make the other favors as viable as Red Sunz!

Postby Pile_O_Gunz » 07 May 2016, 12:30

I don't understand what you guys mean by emphasizing orks "strength" with goff favor


Orks strength comes being strong CQC race


I mean the Goff bonuses - Ramming, boarding , increased troop value are synergetic with Orks natural strength at CQC.
The downside being it doesn't compensate for their weaknesses in anyway like Sunz does.

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MadDemiurg
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Re: Make the other favors as viable as Red Sunz!

Postby MadDemiurg » 07 May 2016, 12:46

Sunz can easily screw up goffs by ramming goff ships into each other with traktors.

Imo a major flaw in current Ork design is that basic catch up tools (which orks desperately need) are relegated to favour bonuses. Imo the core race package (so base stats and universally available skills and weapons) should provide enough tools to eiter catch up or force engagements and favours should improve other areas.

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Bludfist
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Re: Make the other favors as viable as Red Sunz!

Postby Bludfist » 07 May 2016, 15:00

Pile_O_Gunz wrote:
I don't understand what you guys mean by emphasizing orks "strength" with goff favor


Orks strength comes being strong CQC race


I mean the Goff bonuses - Ramming, boarding , increased troop value are synergetic with Orks natural strength at CQC.
The downside being it doesn't compensate for their weaknesses in anyway like Sunz does.

One thing that you must understand i hope about ragin goffs, it dosnt give + 1 assault action

It gives +10 troops, it's a tooltip bug the devs said they will fix next patch

And + 10 troops dosnt do much in the grand scheme of things for orks whom already have high base troop value
Chaos walking into Aldorf be like
Spoiler : :
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