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Re: Blood Axes rework.

Posted: 05 May 2016, 20:01
by Jerjare
The interesting thing with Blood Axes is that they are unsatisfactory for both opponents and Ork players.

Opponents don't like to be victims of nova cannon spam. I don't blame them.

Ork players don't like the weapon's function to be pigeonholed into only being useful on Bashas. The fact that it blows off your prow 25% of the time means its super not worth risking it on a ship with more than 1 other prow weapon (anything heavier than a Basha). I think its dumb that even though you pay exponentially more renown, several favors such as this are actually WORSE on heavier ships.

I mean, why the hell would you want to take this favor on a DethDeala? "Oh snap, my first Nova Cannon shot just blew off my 8x torpedo launcher and twin prow megacannon, now wut?"

Re: Blood Axes rework.

Posted: 05 May 2016, 20:07
by Maye
Bludfist wrote:...



Eldar will play carriers, not retards at 6k range of macro where they will be taunt and ram to death. The favours are not bad, the spam is, before edlar all orks were running megakanon tracktor taunt build, the meta changed it because of pulsar, the changes on eldars will do the same and players will adapt, finding new "cheese" builds.

Re: Blood Axes rework.

Posted: 05 May 2016, 21:57
by Bludfist
Maye wrote:
Bludfist wrote:...



Eldar will play carriers, not retards at 6k range of macro where they will be taunt and ram to death. The favours are not bad, the spam is, before edlar all orks were running megakanon tracktor taunt build, the meta changed it because of pulsar, the changes on eldars will do the same and players will adapt, finding new "cheese" builds.

Carrier fleets only work when your opponent themselves does not field a defensive carrier, that's why carrier fleets fail

and everyone knows you always take 1 carrier vs eldar

So between ships AA turrets and 1 defensive fighter screen and bomber spam every 40s dosnt mean much vs orks high hp
The only meta that changed was that vs eldar people spam onsloughts insted of savages, induction cell, MWJ, taunt and Trakktor cannon ships are still the he's combo, pushing and pulling eldar ships totes off pulsar aim/shots is a great counter to pulsar eldar ships

Once again saying that nova kannonz and futhermore mass novas (which was the thing that got nova cannons nerfed in the first place) is ok, is once again ignoring bad game design

Re: Blood Axes rework.

Posted: 05 May 2016, 22:12
by Maye
Bludfist wrote:
Maye wrote:
Bludfist wrote:...



Eldar will play carriers, not retards at 6k range of macro where they will be taunt and ram to death. The favours are not bad, the spam is, before edlar all orks were running megakanon tracktor taunt build, the meta changed it because of pulsar, the changes on eldars will do the same and players will adapt, finding new "cheese" builds.

Carrier fleets only work when your opponent themselves does not field a defensive carrier, that's why carrier fleets fail

and everyone knows you always take 1 carrier vs eldar

So between ships AA turrets and 1 defensive fighter screen and bomber spam every 40s dosnt mean much vs orks high hp
The only meta that changed was that vs eldar people spam onsloughts insted of savages, induction cell, MWJ, taunt and Trakktor cannon ships are still the he's combo, pushing and pulling eldar ships totes off pulsar aim/shots is a great counter to pulsar eldar ships

Once again saying that nova kannonz and futhermore mass novas (which was the thing that got nova cannons nerfed in the first place) is ok, is once again ignoring bad game design



You don't read what I say, I say whatever the spam, it will be bad, atm the nova spam on orks are not the worst since the nc is already pretty bad, but the lonely carrier countering 4 solaris and a voidstalker, please, just stop, eldar got the best bombers in the game and that hurt a lot, fit your fleet with ulthwe and the orks will be running in a nice pool of maelstrom getting bomb by the deadliest bombers of the game, you want to counter that, you field nova canons, and you need a lot of them. I do play my eldar as written above, the only counter is mass nova. So again remove the nova canon on orks and they are naked against an eldar carrier fleet managed by someone with a brain.

Re: Blood Axes rework.

Posted: 06 May 2016, 06:43
by Jaw Rippa
Maye wrote:You don't read what I say, I say whatever the spam, it will be bad, atm the nova spam on orks are not the worst since the nc is already pretty bad, but the lonely carrier countering 4 solaris and a voidstalker, please, just stop, eldar got the best bombers in the game and that hurt a lot, fit your fleet with ulthwe and the orks will be running in a nice pool of maelstrom getting bomb by the deadliest bombers of the game, you want to counter that, you field nova canons, and you need a lot of them. I do play my eldar as written above, the only counter is mass nova. So again remove the nova canon on orks and they are naked against an eldar carrier fleet managed by someone with a brain.

Then a "healthier" solution would be adding increased mobility to orks, so they can actually close the gap faster to catch eldar? I see what your point is, but requiring dumping points in BA favour spam just to have a chance against specific fleet shows disability of orks to properly adapt. I'd rather see favour to be more versatile and less of a cheese.

Re: Blood Axes rework.

Posted: 06 May 2016, 13:24
by Maye
Jaw Rippa wrote:Then a "healthier" solution would be adding increased mobility to orks, so they can actually close the gap faster to catch eldar? I see what your point is, but requiring dumping points in BA favour spam just to have a chance against specific fleet shows disability of orks to properly adapt. I'd rather see favour to be more versatile and less of a cheese.



Increase mobility on orks and you return at the pré eldar beta state where my deafdela fought 78 battles without dying, at 200 speed imp and chaos were food against the tracktor taunt megakanon ram combo. ATM eldar get the mobility and the big guns, they should undo the nerf on the holofield and reduce their speed and burst damages, but if eldar have to face imp and orks to dps they will die by ramming. It will be difficult to balance.

Re: Blood Axes rework.

Posted: 06 May 2016, 14:38
by MadDemiurg
Imo cruiser clash is just broken in terms of objectives. It allows infinite kiting and it allows equally lame cloud camping. It will never be balanced for factions with different mobility if one of the players has no reasons to engage.

Re: Blood Axes rework.

Posted: 07 May 2016, 02:26
by Jerjare
Jaw Rippa wrote:
Maye wrote:You don't read what I say, I say whatever the spam, it will be bad, atm the nova spam on orks are not the worst since the nc is already pretty bad, but the lonely carrier countering 4 solaris and a voidstalker, please, just stop, eldar got the best bombers in the game and that hurt a lot, fit your fleet with ulthwe and the orks will be running in a nice pool of maelstrom getting bomb by the deadliest bombers of the game, you want to counter that, you field nova canons, and you need a lot of them. I do play my eldar as written above, the only counter is mass nova. So again remove the nova canon on orks and they are naked against an eldar carrier fleet managed by someone with a brain.

Then a "healthier" solution would be adding increased mobility to orks, so they can actually close the gap faster to catch eldar? I see what your point is, but requiring dumping points in BA favour spam just to have a chance against specific fleet shows disability of orks to properly adapt. I'd rather see favour to be more versatile and less of a cheese.

I feel like its ok to make the Orks 'fast' just not very maneuverable. That way an Ork player might have to contend with Eldar ships staying in their six; they might be close enough to hit but hiding outside the arc of any weapons. The Ork player could stagger his ships to cover each other's flanks but then you have to be careful about accidentally hitting each other with torpedoes.

Re: Blood Axes rework.

Posted: 26 May 2016, 06:49
by Jaw Rippa
Edited OP to have images representing my idea.