Ork weapons; halve the dmg, double the fire rate

Wot is da best way to blow up gitz? DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!
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Bludfist
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Ork weapons; halve the dmg, double the fire rate

Postby Bludfist » 01 April 2016, 12:36

This is an idea that some of us in the forums have mentioned interest in and i wanted to put the idea up to the wider fourms to see their interest in the idea, i know a new patch just came out dealing with orks and their weapons and we need to test that for a bit and all that, but still


basically you halve the dmg of ork weapons but you double the fire rate so the net dps output is the same

the main and primary reason being that slow firing weapons are quite frankly very unorky and goes against the "philosophy" of the race

cause its

DAKKADAKKADAKKA

not

DAKKA...DAKKA...DAKKA

i also feel that orks should get more kustomization points, for a factions whose upside is highly customizable ships, 2 points is not enough, espically when you kinda have to spend both on kannons
Last edited by Bludfist on 01 April 2016, 14:08, edited 2 times in total.
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aetaosraukeres
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Re: Ork weapons; halve the dmg, double the fire rate

Postby aetaosraukeres » 01 April 2016, 12:43

Bludfist wrote:This is an idea that some of us in the forums have mentioned interest in and i wanted to put the idea up to the wider fourms to see their interest in the idea, i know a new patch just came out dealing with orks and their weapons and we need to test that for a bit and all that, but still


basically you halve the dmg of ork weapons but you double the fire rate so the net dps output is the same

the main and primary reason being that slow firing weapons are quite frankly very unorky and goes against the "philosophy" of the race

agree
but with half you will have the same ROF as imperials or chaos.
I want to see a hail of bullets, orks should saturate the space with lead, so increase the rof even more and adjust damage accordingly.

Its rather orky to do so and you get a more consistent damage output. No more dice game when i catch a ship

Knight Phaeton
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Re: Ork weapons; halve the dmg, double the fire rate

Postby Knight Phaeton » 01 April 2016, 12:47

Sure, I totally agree.

thewolfpack
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Re: Ork weapons; halve the dmg, double the fire rate

Postby thewolfpack » 01 April 2016, 12:48

Would be great, theme wise, but it’s a bit more complicated than that.

You also have to factor in the "to hit" %,"armour deflect" % and crit %. You would change the play style too, since you would be required now to stay on the target more consistently to get the same damage effect.

And that is just want I came up with in 2 minutes, I'm sure I forgot some factors.

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Bludfist
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Re: Ork weapons; halve the dmg, double the fire rate

Postby Bludfist » 01 April 2016, 12:55

aetaosraukeres wrote:I want to see a hail of bullets, orks should saturate the space with lead, so increase the rof even more and adjust damage accordingly.


agree but any potential "buff" to ork weapon dmg might have imperium players up in arms again which i really dont care to argue with about anymore

thewolfpack wrote: you would be required now to stay on the target more consistently to get the same damage effect.

i get your point but you kinda have to do that with the 0-3k change now any way
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aetaosraukeres
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Re: Ork weapons; halve the dmg, double the fire rate

Postby aetaosraukeres » 01 April 2016, 13:50

thewolfpack wrote:Would be great, theme wise, but it’s a bit more complicated than that.

You also have to factor in the "to hit" %,"armour deflect" % and crit %. You would change the play style too, since you would be required now to stay on the target more consistently to get the same damage effect.

And that is just want I came up with in 2 minutes, I'm sure I forgot some factors.

I dont agree.
The dps, dpm, cpm and whatever fancy abbreviations ppl come up with, would not change. They are absolutly the same.
What will change is your perception.
For example

You have a mega kanon with 122dmg and rof12.
You managed to get a chaos ship in 3km for about 12sec (2shots) . First shot at 3km, 50% hit chance... you missed, no damage. After 12s second shot missed, again. The chaos ship slips away. You managed to corner him for a short period of time but the dice fucked you. Unfair.
On the other hand, you got lucky and delivered 244 damage. Unfair for the chaos dude as he was only in range for 12s or even worse he was only in range for a half of a second twice in 12s. Your ork ship decided to shoot a pesky escort instead of the heavily damaged assissination target.

With increased ROF this will be decreased, the luck part will be smoothened. Damage output will be more consistent.

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Bludfist
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Re: Ork weapons; halve the dmg, double the fire rate

Postby Bludfist » 01 April 2016, 17:29

yes one thing that this game needs, espically for orks is less reliance on rng
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HERO
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Re: Ork weapons; halve the dmg, double the fire rate

Postby HERO » 01 April 2016, 17:58

I agree with this on two fronts. The first is that it's strongly supported in the fluff that Orkz shoot a lot, but are less accurate, so their variance in damage are very swingy.

The second, and arguably more important, is that the current damage formula for Orkz does NOT lead to a good player experience, and is NOT fun for either player.

Let me explain this second point:
> If you have a 144 damage weapon with a 12 second reload, you have 12 DPS.
> If you have a 24 damage weapon with a 2 second reload, you also have a 12 DPS weapon.
> The difference here is that one weapon does 144 alpha damage and the other one does 24.
> Applying perfect accuracy, assuming everything hits, 5 ships with 144 damage weapon deals 720 damage instantly. In other words, the other guy's ship instantly explodes, gg no re. This is a NEGATIVE player experience for the receiving player. There is absolutely no skill involved here in this scenario, and the pinnacle of the type of RNG that an RTS game should NOT have. This would never happen with the 24 DPS weapon.
> Applying worst case scenario, assuming everything misses (or deflected), the 5 ships with the 144 damage weapon deals ZERO damage, for 12 seconds. Even if the other ship had 1 HP left, you did absolutely nothing, and cannot do anything about it for 12 seconds. This is a NEGATIVE player experience for the attacking player. This would never happen if the weapon shot at a much faster rate. A lot can happen in 12 seconds, and the fact that the player is not dealing any damage for that duration when they're ORKZ is reverse fluff.
> The same logic can be applied for how crits work. 36 crit off 1 shot vs. 6 crit off 6 shots in a span of 12 seconds is much more Ork-like.

So in short, the current iteration of Ork damage calculation is WAYYYY off. Both in terms of what it should be in the FLUFF and as a good RTS experience.

TLDR: Someone messed up, big time.
Last edited by HERO on 01 April 2016, 18:07, edited 1 time in total.

Adrmial Seraph
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Re: Ork weapons; halve the dmg, double the fire rate

Postby Adrmial Seraph » 01 April 2016, 18:07

HERO wrote:I agree with this on two fronts. The first is that it's strongly supported in the fluff that Orkz shoot a lot, but are less accurate, so their variance in damage are very swingy.

The second, and arguably more important, is that the current damage formula for Orkz does NOT lead to a good player experience, and is NOT fun for either player.

Let me explain this second point:
> If you have a 144 damage weapon with a 12 second reload, you have 12 DPS.
> If you have a 24 damage weapon with a 2 second reload, you also have a 12 DPS weapon.
> The difference here is that one weapon does 144 alpha damage and the other one does 24.
> Applying perfect accuracy, assuming everything hits, 5 ships with 144 damage weapon deals 720 damage instantly. In other words, the other guy's ship instantly explodes, gg no re. This is a NEGATIVE player experience for the receiving player. There is absolutely no skill involved here in this scenario, and the pinnacle of the type of RNG that an RTS game should NOT have. This would never happen with the 24 DPS weapon.
> Applying worst case scenario, assuming everything misses, the 5 ships with the 144 damage weapon deals ZERO damage, for 12 seconds. Even if the other ship had 1 HP left, you did absolutely nothing, and cannot do anything about it for 12 seconds. This is a NEGATIVE player experience for the attacking player. This would never happen if the weapon shot at a much faster rate. A lot can happen in 12 seconds, and the fact that the player is not dealing any damage for that duration when they're ORKZ is reverse fluff.
> The same logic can be applied for how crits work. 36 crit off 1 shot vs. 6 crit off 6 shots in a span of 12 seconds is much more Ork-like.

So in short, the current iteration of Ork damage calculation is WAYYYY off. Both in terms of what it should be in the FLUFF and as a good RTS experience.

TLDR: Someone messed up, big time.


It was a knee jerk reaction patch, in essence. Orks were smothering win rates and Imperials just couldn't kite or fight them head on.

That lead to a rather extreme patch which really highlights the issue of slow fire+huge RNG=sacky, unfun and sort of unfair which is kind of a check list for what not to do.

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HERO
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Re: Ork weapons; halve the dmg, double the fire rate

Postby HERO » 01 April 2016, 19:00

Adrmial Seraph wrote:It was a knee jerk reaction patch, in essence. Orks were smothering win rates and Imperials just couldn't kite or fight them head on.

That lead to a rather extreme patch which really highlights the issue of slow fire+huge RNG=sacky, unfun and sort of unfair which is kind of a check list for what not to do.


Perhaps, but I really want to hear a developer response why they feel that 144 damage guns is good for gameplay?

Must be the same guy who thought Activated Pulsars was good too.


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