Macro Cannons vs. Lances, a Chaos Fleet view and some (a lot of) numbers

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VanHoven
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Macro Cannons vs. Lances, a Chaos Fleet view and some (a lot of) numbers

Postby VanHoven » 14 March 2016, 16:41

Hey there, I would like to start a discussion about the effectiveness of Macro Cannons at different ranges vs Lances in the Chaos Fleet

Let's take a closer look at 4 different Ships of the unholy Chaos Armada. The glory of the Chaos Fleet, the Desolator Battleship, the brawler type Carnage Cruiser, the Slaughter Cruiser and the Acheron Battle Cruiser.

Let's start with raw numbers and Profiles: The Desolator Battleship has 6 weapon Modules with Twin-Linked Weaponry, 3 per Broadside. Every Battery consists of 4 Macro Cannons and 4 Lance Shots, dealing 3 damage each every 6 seconds up to 12.000 Meters. Under perfect conditions the macro cannons can dish out 7 dps (100 % Hit rate, no armor given). it can only acchieve that by giving the lock on order, increasing his to hit percentages by 20% for 45 seconds (although it is unclear if you can get above 80% with that, but i will go with it for now) and the penetrating armor under 3k engagement range upgrade. Usually its dps for engagements up to 3k range is 2.8 dps (80% hit rate, 50% of attacks negated), up to 6k its 2.1 dps, up to 9k its 1.4 dps and up to 12k its 0.7 dps. With the accuracy module (calculating it as giving a 20% accuracy boost) its 2.8k for 3k range, 2.8k for 6k range, 2.1dps for 9k range and 1.4 dps for 12k range.
His Lances always deal 7 dps up to 12k range.
Adding those up we get without upgrades: 9.8 dps up to 3k, 9.1 dps up to 6k and 8.4 dps up to 9k and 7.7 up to 12k.

Next one the Carnage Cruiser. He only has Macro Cannons at his disposal, but a lot them. He has 4 Macro Cannon Modules consisting of 8 Turrets, each one is firing 3 damage shots with a maximum range of 9k. 2 Modules per Broadside. On top of that is his Prow turret, having 3 shots dealing 9 damage every 9 seconds with a 270° firing arc. So his maximum damage output under perfect conditions as stated above is 8 dps with his broadside modules and 3 dps for his top mounted turret, coming together at around 11 dps. Under normal battle conditions its around 4.4 dps up to 3k engagement range (80% accuracy, 50% of shots negated), in the up to 6k range its 3.3 dps, up to 9k range 2.2 dps. With accuracy module it would be 3k: 4.4, 6k: 4,4, 9k:3.3.

The Slaughter Cruiser. He has 4 Twin linked Broadside Modules, consisting of 4 Macro Cannon turrets dealing 3 damage each every 6 seconds and 2 lance shots, also dealing 3 damage each every 6 seconds. The Macro Cannons come together under perfect conditions to 4 dps per full broadisde, while the lances dish out 2 dps. Both have a max range of 6k. On top of that again a Prow Macro Cannon with 3 Shots at 9 damage every 9 seconds with that juicy 270° firing arc. So another 3 dps under perfect conditions and a 9k range
In normal battle that comes out at 2.8 macro damage dps up to 3k range, up to 6k it's 2.1 dps and 9k range, due its prow cannon, its 0,54 dps.
Again the lances add up straight 2 dps up to 6k range away so you get total damage numbers for 3k engagements of 4,8 dps, 6k range battles 4.1 dps and 9k 0,54 dps.

Now the Acheron. It has 4 Modules with 2 Lance turrets, each firing 2 shots at 4 damage each every 8 seconds. 2 per Broadside. So 4 Shots at 4 Damage every 8 Seconds per Broadside. Added to that two top mounted prow lances, who have instead of the stated 90° firing arc to the front in fact a 270° firing arc with 2 shots each and again summed up 4 Shots at 4 Damage each every 8 seconds. And the same macro cannon turret the Carnage has, adding another 3 dps under perfect circumstances.
The lances add up to a sum of 4 dps, constantly dealing those out to targets up to 12k range away, even 15k with upgrades. The Macro cannon damage is up to a range of 3k around 1.2 dps, up to 6k its 0,9 dps and up to 9k range its 0,6 dps.
Adding those up it has a maximum broadside capabilty of 5.2 dps up to 3k, 4,9 up to 6k, 4,6 up to 9k and up to 12k 4 dps.

So whats the point? First i wanted to dish out some numbers so people dont have to calculate them on their own so everyone can make educated decisions on their fleet roster. As you can see, the Desolator Battleship deals roughly double the damage of a cruiser even up to 12k range away. For me the interesting one is Slaughter vs Carnage cruiser. The Slaughter is ahead by a slim margin but Carnage has a better range with not THAT bad of a dps, especially with the right upgrades. Also the numbers indicate for me that only on the Carnage Cruiser its worth going for all the Macro Cannon Upgrades, it can still dish out 2.2 dps at 12k with range and accuracy upgrade. That suprised me i have to say. Going for Lance range seems always like a nice idea for ships with lances in their broadsides. The Desolator can still do 7 dps at 15k range.... if you spot the enemy. I would have bet the Acheron dealt more Damage and that hes just doing slightly more than the cruisers was also not expected by myself. But its a solid long range choice if u plan on battling at 12k range and above. Maybe combined with the Desolator and a spotter? Or some nice skills? The Carnage Cruiser can really dish out the hurt with the right upgrades, going for the negate armor one and maybe more speed to get close and it will rival or even surpass your desolator.


I think I'll do another number cruncher on the IN side soon, but this took a while ;) Any suggestions are welcome and i hope i was able to provide some usefull information.

Edit: I forgot about that under Lances it states that armor is reduced to a minimum value, not negated completely. Dunno what that means, maybe its 10% ? Till i dont know exactly whats going on i can't include that now, but as all numbers will change in the same way it shouldn't make a difference for comparing them comprehensively.

Demoulius
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Re: Macro Cannons vs. Lances, a Chaos Fleet view and some (a lot of) numbers

Postby Demoulius » 14 March 2016, 18:04

Quickly done some calculations myself and the numbers of your carnage are more or less spot on. Little bit difference with the decimals :P dident bother to check the others at is seems to be alright. Also dont have acces to chaos battleships so...yea :D

Number seem low, but thats because you are calculating it per second, and not per barrage or per minute or half minute which would be a far better indicator of damage considering no fight in this game is just going to last 1 second... I prefer damage per minute myself.

The difference with the IN and the chaos fleet is that the IN has slow firing, high damage dealing guns, while the chaos fleet has very fast firing guns which do less damage per shell. Essentially IN has high alpha while chaos has a good substained DPS. Damage per shell is lower but you are firing them alot faster. You also have more range and factor in the skills and the decrease to range penalty and suddenly that DPS goes up very fast! Also RNG can outright favour you and if all those shells hit you are doing some monster damage :?

Also renember that the IN has no anwser to your fleet if you can keep outrunning him :shock:

Interesting read though :) if you have stats for all the ships it might be helpfull for people to determine what ships they want to take :mrgreen:

Cpt_Teemo
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Re: Macro Cannons vs. Lances, a Chaos Fleet view and some (a lot of) numbers

Postby Cpt_Teemo » 14 March 2016, 18:25

Typical Chaos loving scum! Always running away from a battle!

BURN THE HERETIC, KILL THE MUTANT, PURGE THE UNCLEAN.

VanHoven
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Re: Macro Cannons vs. Lances, a Chaos Fleet view and some (a lot of) numbers

Postby VanHoven » 14 March 2016, 18:26

Well i started calculating to compare lance dmg vs macro cannon dmg for myself to see who really comes out ahead. DPS is just a placeholder for overall combat str over an intervall of time. You are right that its only worth so much. For IN for example with their high cooldown its reasonable to perform fast on the spot turns with the special ability as often as possible, outright doubling their damage according to my formula. for chaos ships its rarely that useful in my experience. But as a start to compare ships in between a faction, especially with all the different weapon loadouts i think it serves its purpose.

something i realized while crunching numbers that long range macro dps isnt as bad as ive thought compared to lances, for example the carnage to the slaughter comparison. but you need a lot of macro cannons for it to be worthwhile. Also the twin linked batterys. if you plan to use your ships in melee fights it may be a good idea to get that armor penetrating upgrade for a serious dps boost.

sure, no big news, but having some numbers and being certain doesnt hurt anyone :)

Demoulius
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Re: Macro Cannons vs. Lances, a Chaos Fleet view and some (a lot of) numbers

Postby Demoulius » 14 March 2016, 18:33

Indeed :lol:

The twin linked broadsides are more suited to 6km or closer engagements I guess. Damage potential on lances is lower but sometimes their DPS can be higher because they cant miss and they ignore armor :lol: its fun to look at the numbers though :mrgreen:

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Imperator5
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Re: Macro Cannons vs. Lances, a Chaos Fleet view and some (a lot of) numbers

Postby Imperator5 » 14 March 2016, 18:39

Your original post, and most of your posts, need to be more structured and ... more excel sheet-y for this kind of thing.
Something like this, I'll help you do the Desolator as a template:

Desolator:
Lances: 7 dps 12k range
Macrocannons at 3k: 2.8 dps with accuracy upgrade 2.8 dps
Macrocannons at 6k: 2.1 dps with accuracy upgrade 2.8 dps
Macrocannons at 9k: 1.4 dps with accuracy upgrade 2.1 dps
Macrocannons at 12k: 0.7 dps with accuracy upgrade 1.4 dps
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

Please help me change skirmish to be customisable. Its very important for PVE players.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=515 Mod idea.

VanHoven
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Re: Macro Cannons vs. Lances, a Chaos Fleet view and some (a lot of) numbers

Postby VanHoven » 14 March 2016, 18:59

come on dude, what is your thing with lecturing people? if you dont like it, make it better, i just came up with this in a few moments without thinking to much about it. isnt it stressfull to go over everything and think "hmmmm that should be done differently!". to be honest, all your posts have this entiteled feeling around them. good god, you made a mod. be proud of that. now stop shuffing it in each ones mouth. it gets boring and you sound like a douche like that. also english isnt my first language, not even my second. and im too old and not being used to online forums. good god you are annoying. edit: oh and have a nice evening :)

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Imperator5
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Re: Macro Cannons vs. Lances, a Chaos Fleet view and some (a lot of) numbers

Postby Imperator5 » 14 March 2016, 19:10

VanHoven wrote:come on dude, what is your thing with lecturing people? if you dont like it, make it better, i just came up with this in a few moments without thinking to much about it. isnt it stressfull to go over everything and think "hmmmm that should be done differently!". to be honest, all your posts have this entiteled feeling around them. good god, you made a mod. be proud of that. now stop shuffing it in each ones mouth. it gets boring and you sound like a douche like that. also english isnt my first language, not even my second. and im too old and not being used to online forums. good god you are annoying. edit: oh and have a nice evening :)


As a good follower of the Omnissiah, I always go over everything and see if it can be done better or not. I put a lot of effort to my mods, projects, and all that. I even put effort into my posts so that it will be easier to read for others. I even tried to help you because I figured you are a teenager who is unfamiliar with proper internet etiquette.

I'm not a native English speaker either, yet I make the effort to at least try and write correctly. If you want to give people advice or talk to them, you need to do it so that it is easy for them to understand what you want to convey. Most of the time older people know how to write and make proper posts.

I tried to show you how to make things better, because I figured these values would be useful to people. I was foolish to expect a thank you.
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

Please help me change skirmish to be customisable. Its very important for PVE players.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=515 Mod idea.

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HERO
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Re: Macro Cannons vs. Lances, a Chaos Fleet view and some (a lot of) numbers

Postby HERO » 14 March 2016, 19:22

VanHoven wrote:Well i started calculating to compare lance dmg vs macro cannon dmg for myself to see who really comes out ahead. DPS is just a placeholder for overall combat str over an intervall of time. You are right that its only worth so much. For IN for example with their high cooldown its reasonable to perform fast on the spot turns with the special ability as often as possible, outright doubling their damage according to my formula. for chaos ships its rarely that useful in my experience. But as a start to compare ships in between a faction, especially with all the different weapon loadouts i think it serves its purpose.

something i realized while crunching numbers that long range macro dps isnt as bad as ive thought compared to lances, for example the carnage to the slaughter comparison. but you need a lot of macro cannons for it to be worthwhile. Also the twin linked batterys. if you plan to use your ships in melee fights it may be a good idea to get that armor penetrating upgrade for a serious dps boost.

sure, no big news, but having some numbers and being certain doesnt hurt anyone :)


Yeah, I get you, np. Most naval warfare games calculate proposed DPM, but as long as the numbers for DPS is fine, their numbers work proportionally :) Besides, I often find DPM to be harder to manage because ships move in and out of range all the time, and their hit % changes depending on battlefield conditions.

Awesome job here, thank you for doing this.

I did something like this for Navy Field 2 as well, and I think it would be super helpful for the developers as well to have this via google docs, where we can have all the information on which ships are doing higher/lower DPS at stock, and fully upgraded. This will help determine their effectiveness and identify balance concerns as entry level ships for newer players who just acquired them, replacement ships for when players don't have the ships, and when veteran players fight against newer players.

VanHoven
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Re: Macro Cannons vs. Lances, a Chaos Fleet view and some (a lot of) numbers

Postby VanHoven » 14 March 2016, 19:58

oh come on imperator, if you would really try to help someone out than dont be that douchy about it. you don't say "you have to do this differently" you say, hey, nice information, or you make a valid point! now, if you could structure it differently i'm sure the information would be more accessible to everyone! that's the way if you really want to improve someones way of doing things.

well and thank you for thinking im a teenager, that makes me happy :=) and now that you explained that you were just trying to help me out because u've seen a little helpless forum user, not knowing how to interact in the internet properly u will get your thank you at last. here i was thinking that you are just a self-righteous man, trying to lecture people about how he thinks things have to be done, only looking at the obvious without seeing the content itself. being happy to find little mistakes people make, getting a feeling of superiority and importancy out of correcting people without even looking at what they say.

so thank you for pointing out how i have to structure what i'm saying if i want people to take a look at it. i will try to improve, i promise. oh, and have a nice evening, again :)

oh and hero, your welcome, thats why i wrote it down. i hope my structure wasnt too much all over the place and that it didnt hurt too much to read through :o( as i've said i will try to improve.


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