Hybrid weaponry, and chaos ship weapon gripes

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Demoulius
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Re: Hybrid weaponry, and chaos ship weapon gripes

Postby Demoulius » 14 March 2016, 14:13

The Desolater was one of the most powerfull battleships in the chaos arsenal. So id assume that would be correct, yes...

VanHoven
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Re: Hybrid weaponry, and chaos ship weapon gripes

Postby VanHoven » 14 March 2016, 14:32

i imagine you took the tooltips as they are, so for the battleship 3 batteries per side doing 3 macro cannon damage every 6 seconds. That is wrong. They do 3 damage every 6 seconds PER EVERY LITTLE TURRET on the ship, when i counted right its 4 for every battery, making it 12 per complete broadise, as i explained in the example of the carnage cruiser above. to evaluate further that would mean 36 dmg every 6 seconds. ok, to be true, its only a third of what i stated at 7 dps, influenced by aiming rate. but they have 2 lance turrets also in each battery, 6 in total with 2 barrels each, going for 12 shots 3 damage each so 36 damage every 6 seconds so another 7 dps. so 14 dps in total. ok, i over exagerated a lot, but u also underestimated the damage output by a long shot. that would mean with perfect aiming and no armor value (give the lock on order, have the armor penetrating upgrade for under 3k range and are within that) you can do 840 dpm. Enough to kill a cruiser in a minute of constant firing without having it shields up. that is quite what my experience in game is like.

Charon
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Re: Hybrid weaponry, and chaos ship weapon gripes

Postby Charon » 14 March 2016, 14:41

that would mean 36 dmg every 6 seconds


That is without the hit percentage right?
So at point blank (3k) you are at 28,8 every 6 -> 4,8 DPS BEFORE armor
At 9k range you would sit at 2,4 DPS BEFORE armor.

Lucifronsun
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Re: Hybrid weaponry, and chaos ship weapon gripes

Postby Lucifronsun » 14 March 2016, 14:53

Demoulius wrote:The Desolater was one of the most powerfull battleships in the chaos arsenal. So id assume that would be correct, yes...


In the tabletop I presume. Well this is not so in game, in case you don't know, and to illustrate how much not so in game this is, I will explain in detail.

Now battleships are the tankiest ships in the game, and it requires a focused effort from multiple ships to take them down in what would be considered, a "good amount of time". I will use the chaos battleship health as an example.

The chaos battleships has 1200 hull, and 400 shield. So 1600 effective health not counting shield recharging. 1200 of that is subject to armor, as I believe shields are not.

20 dps, equates to 1200 damage per minute. That is an astonishing amount by itself, but there's more. This is 20 dps after the application of damage reducing factors. Now let's assume we're talking an optimal range for a chaos warship, which is 10-12k, and that the accuracy upgrade is taken.

40% of shots will hit, as with the accuracy upgrade, I believe the lowest it can go is 40%. Armor is the chance that a shot will be blocked entirely, which is 50% across the board.

Now since the max accuracy is 80%, if the ships moves close, it can double its damage output. That's ratchets up the number to 40 dps, an astonishing 2400 damage per minute. That means a single ship with that kind of firepower, can take down 1.5 battleships per minute, by itself, with only the macro cannons.

But it gets better, as you can tell from my original post, there's 3 lance dps to 1 macro dps. So we're back to 20 dps from the macro cannon, and 60 dps from lances. This guy is proposing that the ship would have 80 dps at least, and 100 dps at most.

To put that into perspective, it would do at least 4800 damage per minute, that's 3 battleships a minute, 20 seconds per battleship. At most, 6000 damage per minute, which is 3.75 battleships per minute. From a single ship.

I don't think I need to go on from here.
Last edited by Lucifronsun on 14 March 2016, 14:57, edited 1 time in total.

VanHoven
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Re: Hybrid weaponry, and chaos ship weapon gripes

Postby VanHoven » 14 March 2016, 14:55

Well, macro cannons are only really usefull up to 6km engagement range, more than that and they loose their oomph. i imagine that the accuracy upgrade makes it that your aim at 6k is80%, 9k 60% and so on, but still i think going over 9k range is a waste. that means that macro cannons with a range further than 6k unbuffed are quite useless, meaning that sacrificing firepower for greater range as on most chaos ships and the one IN cruiser is a very bad trade off. go macro cannons if you want to fight in very close engagements. unbuffed the dps of the bs at 9k range would be, including enemy armor of 50%, be around and slightly lower than 2 dps (7 dps with 40% hit rate 50% negated) plus the constant 7 lance dps so in total at around 9. getting the accuracy buff would change it from slightly under 9 to slightly above 9 so accuracy buff on the desolator seems like a bad investion.

VanHoven
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Re: Hybrid weaponry, and chaos ship weapon gripes

Postby VanHoven » 14 March 2016, 14:59

I clearly stated the lance dps vs macro dps, u clearly dont want to read what i write and only get out of it what you want to. i allready stated that i over exagerated the macro canon dps by a great deal, but you also underestimated it. why so grumpy friend?

Demoulius
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Re: Hybrid weaponry, and chaos ship weapon gripes

Postby Demoulius » 14 March 2016, 14:59

Hold on. Are you calling the damage that kills 1.5 BATTLESHIP per minute poor damage?

What kind of drugs are you on? I want some... Because that dpm is fucking incredible!

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Hjalfnar_Feuerwolf
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Re: Hybrid weaponry, and chaos ship weapon gripes

Postby Hjalfnar_Feuerwolf » 14 March 2016, 15:00

Charon wrote:
Hjalfnar_Feuerwolf wrote:
Charon wrote:In the CTT you did not need macro cannons against eldar. Spamming lighning strike and micro warp right in front of them to force a collision destroys basically the whole fleet without a single shot.
And you don't think they took Eldar out of the beta til now because they are reworking this? :lol: They simply have to go after the tabletop and Eldar will be short range DPS masters of the game...extremly fast firing lances and virtually impossible to board while they move (yeah, in tabletop the holofields were also good against boarding).


They cant "simply" go after the TT Eldar, as the mechanics in game prevent this.
Short ranged + fast + beeing forced to move all the time + weapons at front only = guaranteed collision

In the TT you did not ram a ship if you moved past it, you needed to order your ship to ram. That was one of the things that made Eldar flyby attacks possible. Game mechanics prevent this, eldar just crush on the enemy ship.

The extremely fast firing lance was a 3 sec channeled cooldown ability in CTT that required you to point at the enemy for full 3 sec without turning (or you hit your allies) and had a short range = collision or no damage

In the TT eldar could move twice making them able to go in, fire and go out again. This is a RTS that does not have an "ordnance phase" so you neither can make them move twice nor can you make them double as fast as this would only lead to more unintntional ramming.
And you still don't think they will rework the mechanics COMPLETELY exact because of this? ^^ If they stick closer to the lore with the Eldar (fastest and most agile ships) and give them the ability to automatically evade enemy ships they would work perfectly. And that is the moment were you would need macrocannons on Chaos ships.
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Lucifronsun
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Re: Hybrid weaponry, and chaos ship weapon gripes

Postby Lucifronsun » 14 March 2016, 15:06

VanHoven wrote:I clearly stated the lance dps vs macro dps, u clearly dont want to read what i write and only get out of it what you want to. i allready stated that i over exagerated the macro canon dps by a great deal, but you also underestimated it. why so grumpy friend?


Oh did you? I was typing that post for a good bit, I hadn't seen any. That and your posts needs spacing, makes them needlessly difficult to read, and me less inclined to read them.

And no, I did not underestimate it. You're free to check the math, using the same procedures I used, you will come to the exact same conclusion. Lance and macro, I'm correct.

The numbers dont lie.

Charon
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Re: Hybrid weaponry, and chaos ship weapon gripes

Postby Charon » 14 March 2016, 15:11

No, I dont think they reworked Eldar completely as there was not much time to do so, we are 2 weeks till planned release and if they are not in beta their balance will suck anyways as there was no time to try if they work on a big scale.
I would even argue that Orks and Eldar were pulled from the beta to not drive people away from the game.
Also, while Eldar were nearly immune to boarding in the TT it is here listed as a weakness. Their weapons have the same range as the lightning strike and once the holofield (or their only weapon, cause eldar do have just a few weapons that were very powerful in the TT) is gone the are dead.
No way to fix 50 % of all playable races and create another one for early buyers in just a few weeks while still fixing bugs, crashes, balance missions and the other 2 remaining factions that are not even balanced against each other.


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