Hybrid weaponry, and chaos ship weapon gripes

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Charon
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Re: Hybrid weaponry, and chaos ship weapon gripes

Postby Charon » 14 March 2016, 12:24

In the CTT you did not need macro cannons against eldar. Spamming lighning strike and micro warp right in front of them to force a collision destroys basically the whole fleet without a single shot.

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Re: Hybrid weaponry, and chaos ship weapon gripes

Postby Beernchips » 14 March 2016, 12:25

par Lucifronsun » 14 mars 2016, 13:17

Well it seems the best I can hope for is a numbers change, if all the ships have their weapons locked to their tabletop counterparts. That, or some new weapon upgrades that focus on hybrid weaponry, which would probably solve most of the problems with them. They have the dubious honor of being the elephant in the room from a game design perspective.

On a side note, since lances ignore armor, wouldn't it be interesting if the damage was lowered but fire rate increased, to fulfill my wish of space battles being laser raves?


In 40k universe Imperium and Chaos are at same time advanced technology but also a bit more in middle age so they often rely on more classic ballistics weapons than on beams. Thats why Imperium have high use of macro weapons which send big ammos in the face.

The lasers are more dedicated to Eldars and Tau. Tyranids will splash acids and organic stuff. Orks will use almost everything if it make good noise and damages :)
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Re: Hybrid weaponry, and chaos ship weapon gripes

Postby VanHoven » 14 March 2016, 12:26

Lucifronsun wrote:
Hjalfnar_Feuerwolf wrote:Believe me, Chaos will need macro cannons when Eldar and Orks come in, as both are short distance fighters with higher speed then Chaos. In case of the Eldar even lance fire won't do damage for sure because of the holo fields. Don't judge too early.


Maybe they can get some better macro cannons in the meantime. The whopping dps of 1 on the battleships macro cannons at long range isn't impressive. But hey, it can be doubled to an incredible 2 dps, if they're within pissing distance, but at that point you've got bigger problems.



The tooltips regarding the weapon stats aren't complete, its damage per turret displayed on the ship, like i said in my post before

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Re: Hybrid weaponry, and chaos ship weapon gripes

Postby Lucifronsun » 14 March 2016, 12:32

VanHoven wrote:Let's compare the carnage to the dominator dps wise. the dominator has 2 batterys per side with 4 turrets each doing 18 damage a shot every 12 seconds, so thats 144 damage a volley and 720 potential damage over a minute.

The carnage has 2 batterys per side with 8 turrets each doing 3 damage a shot every 6 seconds, so thats 48 damage a volley and 480 potential damage over a minute. On top of that it has a top mounted turret with an 270° firing arc shooting 3 times 9 damage shots every 9 seconds for 27 damage a volley and around 180 potential damage over a minute. Combining that it has a potential damage output of around 660 damage a minute. With 3k more max range at that. Ok, the dominator has its nova gun that can be very destructive if porperly used, but its hard to calculate damage wise.

another point is the shots over a minute rate. the dominator is firing 40 shots over aminute, the carnage 160 for the broadsides and 20 for the turret, so 180 in total. it only has, fully upgraded a 5th of the crit chance of the dominator's guns, so thats around equal.

But due to its amount of shots it depends less an randomness and isnt that harshly punished by missfires. In my eyes they are about euqal at brawling, maybe the chaos one is even slightly better.


I wouldn't count the front mounted turret in calculating broadside dps, even with the large firing arc, it's still a port weapon. Thus it's likely to be very inconsistent dps, especially on a brawling ship.



VanHoven wrote:
Lucifronsun wrote:
Hjalfnar_Feuerwolf wrote:Believe me, Chaos will need macro cannons when Eldar and Orks come in, as both are short distance fighters with higher speed then Chaos. In case of the Eldar even lance fire won't do damage for sure because of the holo fields. Don't judge too early.


Maybe they can get some better macro cannons in the meantime. The whopping dps of 1 on the battleships macro cannons at long range isn't impressive. But hey, it can be doubled to an incredible 2 dps, if they're within pissing distance, but at that point you've got bigger problems.



The tooltips regarding the weapon stats aren't complete, its damage per turret displayed on the ship, like i said in my post before


Yes, and?

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Re: Hybrid weaponry, and chaos ship weapon gripes

Postby Hjalfnar_Feuerwolf » 14 March 2016, 12:43

Charon wrote:In the CTT you did not need macro cannons against eldar. Spamming lighning strike and micro warp right in front of them to force a collision destroys basically the whole fleet without a single shot.
And you don't think they took Eldar out of the beta til now because they are reworking this? :lol: They simply have to go after the tabletop and Eldar will be short range DPS masters of the game...extremly fast firing lances and virtually impossible to board while they move (yeah, in tabletop the holofields were also good against boarding).
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Re: Hybrid weaponry, and chaos ship weapon gripes

Postby Imperator5 » 14 March 2016, 12:46

Beernchips wrote:
par Lucifronsun » 14 mars 2016, 13:17

Well it seems the best I can hope for is a numbers change, if all the ships have their weapons locked to their tabletop counterparts. That, or some new weapon upgrades that focus on hybrid weaponry, which would probably solve most of the problems with them. They have the dubious honor of being the elephant in the room from a game design perspective.

On a side note, since lances ignore armor, wouldn't it be interesting if the damage was lowered but fire rate increased, to fulfill my wish of space battles being laser raves?


In 40k universe Imperium and Chaos are at same time advanced technology but also a bit more in middle age so they often rely on more classic ballistics weapons than on beams. Thats why Imperium have high use of macro weapons which send big ammos in the face.

The lasers are more dedicated to Eldars and Tau. Tyranids will splash acids and organic stuff. Orks will use almost everything if it make good noise and damages :)



Actually, no. The Imperium has over 6 weapon battery types.
There are lasers (well 40k lances are energy bursts along laser beams), plasma, ballistic, fusion/melta, guided rockets (Smaller than torpedoes), gravity weapons and even the rare ion cannon (disruption battery) . In lore all these have their own advantages, disadvantages and stuff.

Its the orks that use almost exclusively ballistic ones.
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Re: Hybrid weaponry, and chaos ship weapon gripes

Postby Charon » 14 March 2016, 13:01

Hjalfnar_Feuerwolf wrote:
Charon wrote:In the CTT you did not need macro cannons against eldar. Spamming lighning strike and micro warp right in front of them to force a collision destroys basically the whole fleet without a single shot.
And you don't think they took Eldar out of the beta til now because they are reworking this? :lol: They simply have to go after the tabletop and Eldar will be short range DPS masters of the game...extremly fast firing lances and virtually impossible to board while they move (yeah, in tabletop the holofields were also good against boarding).


They cant "simply" go after the TT Eldar, as the mechanics in game prevent this.
Short ranged + fast + beeing forced to move all the time + weapons at front only = guaranteed collision

In the TT you did not ram a ship if you moved past it, you needed to order your ship to ram. That was one of the things that made Eldar flyby attacks possible. Game mechanics prevent this, eldar just crush on the enemy ship.

The extremely fast firing lance was a 3 sec channeled cooldown ability in CTT that required you to point at the enemy for full 3 sec without turning (or you hit your allies) and had a short range = collision or no damage

In the TT eldar could move twice making them able to go in, fire and go out again. This is a RTS that does not have an "ordnance phase" so you neither can make them move twice nor can you make them double as fast as this would only lead to more unintntional ramming.

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Re: Hybrid weaponry, and chaos ship weapon gripes

Postby Demoulius » 14 March 2016, 13:14

I guess part of the problem comes that not all chaos ships have the range that they got in the TT.

If we count 15 cm as 3 km, 30 as 6 km etc etc there are some inconsistancies. Most of the chaos cruisers have prow weapon batteries but these are replaced in armada with the dorsal turrets. In the TT only heavy cruisers (not battlecruisers mind you, chaos dont have those :P ) should have dorsal turrets.... But I guess its a design decision.

Slaugher is spot on. It only has 6km ranged guns and a combination of lances and batteries.

Carnage has 60% of its guns at 9 km and 40% of its guns at 12 km. Not in the game, all the guns are 9 km. Easily fixed with the range upgrade, but still... The Tyrant for the imperium also has a mixed range on its batteries, so no reason why the Carnage cant have that either :roll:

Murder. 9 km broadsides and 12 km forward lances. Spot on.

Devastation. This one is kinda weird. In armada he has a hybrid broadside. In the TT he has 12 km lances and prow weapon batteries. The turrets replace the prow weapons but it has hybrid weapons which is...weird. They are also only 6km range. Seems to me that this one needs an overhaul at the very least.

For the heavy cruisers:
Archeron actually has BETTER weapons then it does on the TT. On TT it has broadsides with lances at 12km. Dorsal lances at 9km and prow batteries at 9 km. In Armada all the lances are 12km and the batteries are still 9km.

Hades is spot on all. All ranges are correct.

Styx is only slightly off. The batteries should be 12km.

ALL heavy cruisers have limited firing arcs on their lance based turrets though. In the TT they can fire front/left right (so 270 degrees) which would go a long way of making them easier to play. Would also bring them in line with all of the other turrets in the game right now as restricting them to only firing forward is kinda odd..

Battleships I havent unlocked yet so cant comment on that...

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Re: Hybrid weaponry, and chaos ship weapon gripes

Postby VanHoven » 14 March 2016, 13:25

Lucifronsun wrote:
I wouldn't count the front mounted turret in calculating broadside dps, even with the large firing arc, it's still a port weapon. Thus it's likely to be very inconsistent dps, especially on a brawling ship.



VanHoven wrote:
Lucifronsun wrote:
Maybe they can get some better macro cannons in the meantime. The whopping dps of 1 on the battleships macro cannons at long range isn't impressive. But hey, it can be doubled to an incredible 2 dps, if they're within pissing distance, but at that point you've got bigger problems.



The tooltips regarding the weapon stats aren't complete, its damage per turret displayed on the ship, like i said in my post before


Yes, and?


To your first note: It has a 270° firing arc, thus being able to fire at both broadsides and it's front arc. so i think its legit to count it in in regarding to its broadside capabilities. the only occasion when its not true when there are multiple enemy ships surrounding him, but you can still manage where your shots will go with the priorities you can set on enemy ships. All in all i see the carnage's main strength as in his consistency over the dominator.

I wanted to say that the battleships dps is much higher than 1 or 2 dps, its more like around 20 on his macro cannons alone, and than the lances come in.

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Re: Hybrid weaponry, and chaos ship weapon gripes

Postby Lucifronsun » 14 March 2016, 13:58

VanHoven wrote:To your first note: It has a 270° firing arc, thus being able to fire at both broadsides and it's front arc. so i think its legit to count it in in regarding to its broadside capabilities. the only occasion when its not true when there are multiple enemy ships surrounding him, but you can still manage where your shots will go with the priorities you can set on enemy ships. All in all i see the carnage's main strength as in his consistency over the dominator.

I wanted to say that the battleships dps is much higher than 1 or 2 dps, its more like around 20 on his macro cannons alone, and than the lances come in.


Do forgive me for the angle, I've been awake far too long and I need sleep. But to your answer about the battleship dps, you're entirely wrong. I don't know how you could possibly be wrong by that large of a margin, except that you didn't actually look for any evidence of what you claim, and just made it up.

I already did the math for the dps, on a broadside. If the macro cannon on the desolator put out half the dps you claim, it would be the single most powerful ship in the game, and would absolutely run over everything in damage output.


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