Overload Generator Upgrade, and Lance Boats

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FatMountain
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Overload Generator Upgrade, and Lance Boats

Postby FatMountain » 26 May 2016, 02:47

It seems some people in the Tech Support boards asked a while back if Overload Generator was working properly. There didn't seem to be an answer.

Does anyone take this upgrade or find it worthwhile? I have it on my Acheron, Despoiler and my Hellbringer MK2, yet I VERY rarely see crits happen when lock-on is engaged (or otherwise). This is with maxed out Master Gunners on all. All of them can be firing for the entire 45 seconds of Lock On, and I won't have a single crit on a single ship they are focusing on. This means either the upgrade isn't working OR crit chances on Chaos Lances are so low that it isn't even worth trying.

If that's the case, how should I build out my Lance Boats? Should I completely forget even using Master Gunner crew members, and nix Overload Generator? Just doesn't seem worth it. How do you guys upgrade your Lance Boats?

Thanks in advance for all opinions.

MYNAME?
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Re: Overload Generator Upgrade, and Lance Boats

Postby MYNAME? » 26 May 2016, 06:20

Forget about Overloaded Generators and the master gunner perk if you are going full lance.

Crit Chance with lances is next to non existent. Best upgrade for Lances is the 3k upgrade and the Disruptor Overcharge on your Acherons as well as your MK 2s.

You can go with full lance but the best chaos builds are normally a mix of Lance and Carriers. Not sure what you wanna do.

Best Mark for your achersons is the Mark Of Nurgle if you are not going to run with any carrier support. Boarding torpedos and boardings will pretty much never bother you at this point. I prefer MoK but that is more preference really. (Not a nurgle fan)

I set up my Acherons for Long range tanking. Overshields, Shield Regen, Shield Transfer.
This allows them to survive if they somehow get cornered or imperials and orks manage to get close enough to use their macros effectively.

Offensive Upgrades will be invested in Lance Range and shield breaking lances. will take 2 slots for that
Defensive Upgrades would be Extra Shields, Shield regen 50%+ and Belt Armor (JUST IN CASE RNG HATES YOU)

Crew points all go to Hereteks, Slaves, Cultists.

Thats how i set my Acherons up but if you want you can go with extra stasis except for Shield transfer if you are still not that good at kiting and tend to get in a bind alot.

I personally prefer the Carrier Hellbringers but MK2s will do.

You Should give them either MoK or MoS

MoS can help you alot vs ability spammers aka Orks or imperials that really enjoy using stasis bombs or Taunt.

Give one of your hellbringers a beacon (this ship will always deploy with your lance fleet) and again if your kite game is low and you are feeling cheezy bring 2 or 3 stasis bombs. Yeah they can be countered by plasma bombs but you can only do so much vs 3 stasis. Its also really irritating.

MK 2 Upgrades

+ 3k Lances.

Probably want to have better shields. i usually invest heavy in stealth for my ships but that is up to you

If your running with Khorne mark you want added teleportariums


Well thats it for now if you want to you can check out my Mixed Long Range Fleet setup under the Chaos Warfleet Category
Thats my Build i run with on 600-700 point games. Its a good build that doesnt have many weaknesses Good against all race and very generalis setup that works in all game modes and is fun to play.

Beernchips
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Re: Overload Generator Upgrade, and Lance Boats

Postby Beernchips » 26 May 2016, 10:00

The upgrade is working but is not very good.
First the 300% crit chance is in replacement of the 100% from lock on and not in addition.
Also, Chaos lance crit chance is pretty low.
For a lance batteri you have 1 crit chance for each shot (2 guns / 2 attacks for battery) so with overload generator you have 4 crit chance each shot for the duration of lock on.
You will fire 5 times at best during lock on with increased duration.
Im not good in statistics but it will make something like 70% chance to get 1 crit (if someone can make the proper maths I would be grateful)
Repent, for tomorrow you die

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Crnyo
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Re: Overload Generator Upgrade, and Lance Boats

Postby Crnyo » 26 May 2016, 10:06

Reason why chaos lance boat crit chance feels so lackluster is because even with overload generator half of your crit potential still comes from macro cannons.
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Bludfist
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Re: Overload Generator Upgrade, and Lance Boats

Postby Bludfist » 26 May 2016, 12:26

so guys is it better to have the probes or the beacons for detection on a lance fleet?
Chaos walking into Aldorf be like
Spoiler : :
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angelshard
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Re: Overload Generator Upgrade, and Lance Boats

Postby angelshard » 26 May 2016, 13:19

I'd say beacons only, you don't have any capabilities to hit beyond 15k (unless you like the pathetic torpedo options chaos has) beacon will give you a 20k reveal range and you can drop it on clouds and ships.

Probes are really more for finding out what you're trying to hit halfway across the map.

Kashtano
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Re: Overload Generator Upgrade, and Lance Boats

Postby Kashtano » 26 May 2016, 14:24

angelshard wrote: beacon will give you a 20k reveal range


That would be very nice. I know the tooltip says 10k range, but in reality it is more about 2.5k. Probes and beacons are equally useless on an Acheron, the beacon has not enough range and the probe is too slow. I use beacons on Hellbringers or Carnages.

Beernchips wrote:Im not good in statistics but it will make something like 70% chance to get 1 crit (if someone can make the proper maths I would be grateful)


Math hammer incoming ...

Kashtano
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Re: Overload Generator Upgrade, and Lance Boats

Postby Kashtano » 26 May 2016, 16:35

Ok, I did the math hammer. The numbers are quite large:

The Acheron's lance broadside consists of two batteries (4 barrels each) and two turrets (2 barrels each). In one volley, we have 12 beams against the enemy. A Chaos lance has a rate of fire of 8, so it fires again after 8 seconds, Lock On has 45 seconds duration. If you activate Lock On at the moment the lances fire, you can get 6 volleys during one Lock On (one shot at second 0/8/16/24/32/40). 6 * 12 = 72 lance shots fired at the enemy during one Lock On. 25 % get mitigated by armour and can't crit, leaving 54 actual hits.

For simplicity's sake, we won't calculate the chance of getting exactly one crit, but the chance of at least one crit. This is the opposite of "no critical hits", so it can be calculated by:

1 - (Chance of no crit) ^ (number of hits) = chance of at least one critical hit

Chaos lances have a crit chance of 1 % per hit, which means 99 % chance of no crit, so it's 1 - 0.99 ^ 54 = 0.418834
  • 1 % crit chance, 54 hits: 42 % chance of at least one critical hit. This applies if you don't use Lock on, but another special order, e.g. Brace. During the duration your lances have a 42 % chance to crit at least once.
  • 2 % crit chance, 54 hits: 66 % chance of at least one crit. Same as before with standard Lock On.
  • 4 % crit chance, 54 hits: 89 % chance. Lock On and Overload Generator
During a Lock On with extended duration (67 seconds) the Acheron would fire 9 volleys with 108 lance beams, leaving 81 actual hits:
  • 1 % crit chance, 81 hits: 56 % chance. Other Special Command, extended duration.
  • 2 % crit chance, 81 hits: 80 % chance. With Lock On, extended duration.
  • 4 % crit chance, 81 hits: 96 % chance. With Lock On, extended duration and Overload Generator.

I did not use Master Gunner upgrades in my calculation, because I don't know how they interact exactly with Lock On/Overload Generators.

I leave it to your own judgement whether these numbers have something to do with reality. If you find mathematical mistakes, feel free to correct me.

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Crnyo
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Re: Overload Generator Upgrade, and Lance Boats

Postby Crnyo » 26 May 2016, 19:31

You can fire 5 lance volleys before shields regenerate.
According to your calculation (which I believe is correct) we are practically guaranteed to score at least one critical hit within those 5 volleys because

0,96 ^ (60 * 0,75) = 16% -> chance of scoring critical damage is 84%

However after 5 rounds of testing in custom matches I've found out that Acheron with overload generator upgrade never scores critical hit within those first 5 volleys.

I don't think your calculation is wrong but rather tooltip information is most likely incorrect or perhaps lances are bugged.
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Kashtano
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Re: Overload Generator Upgrade, and Lance Boats

Postby Kashtano » 26 May 2016, 20:36

Crnyo wrote:You can fire 5 lance volleys before shields regenerate.
According to your calculation (which I believe is correct) we are practically guaranteed to score at least one critical hit within those 5 volleys because

0,96 ^ (60 * 0,75) = 16% -> chance of scoring critical damage is 84%

However after 5 rounds of testing in custom matches I've found out that Acheron with overload generator upgrade never scores critical hit within those first 5 volleys.

I don't think your calculation is wrong but rather tooltip information is most likely incorrect or perhaps lances are bugged.


I made the same calculation for Dominator and Retribution at point blank range and had results between 85 % and 90 %. For a Carnage it was 76 % so I think it affects macros too.

Until now we assumed that crit rates in the tooltips are equal to "percent per hit". Perhaps this is the error and it means something completely different?


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